The name of Michael Conniff’s radio show: Congames, was never more appropriate than it was today and last week as he promoted Dr. Tawfik Hamid’s version of the roots of jihad. The Conman has been conned.
A new trend has arisen in recent years for Jewish pro-Israel activism groups to recruit so-called Muslim “reformers” such as Tawfik Hamid, who professes to speak as an expert on terrorism and Muslim culture and religion. In fact, Hamid’s only credentials are that he was allegedly recruited by a terrorist organization over twenty years ago. He grew up in a secular family with no formal Islamic training, yet claims to know the heart and soul of Islam. The true extent of his ignorance is revealed when he blatantly states that the majority of moderate Muslims condone jihad and that most American mosques preach the violent overthrow of secular society. He also asserts that democracy and Islam are incompatible. These are despicable characterizations of Islam that Dr. Hamid has no right to make because they are based solely on his own limited experience and are nothing but opinion.
Dr. Tawfik Hamid is incorrectly billed as “Professor of Law and Director of Institute for Global Security Law and Policy” (he’s actually a medical doctor) on IsraelActivism.com, the official website of Hasbara Fellowships. In 2001, when the Israeli Foreign Ministry sought to combat “anti-Israel propaganda” on college campuses it enlisted the help of Aish HaTorah which is known as a staunch defender of Israel. This organization founded Hasbara Fellowships, to educate and train university students to be effective pro-Israel activists on their campuses. Aish HaTorah also launched a grassroots movement which scrutinizes the worldwide media for “anti-Israel bias,” then alerts its 140,000 subscribers to respond directly to the news agency concerned.
Hamid speaks to and for Jewish organizations around the country and was recently invited to speak by the Zionist Organization of America at the Detroit Jewish Community Center. His appearance in Aspen on June 25th was the work of ALERT (American League for Effective Responses to Terrorism) an organization co-founded by Doug Weiser and Judith King, formerly of Valley Voices for Middle East Peace, which had as its goal the destruction of the Roaring Fork Peace Coalition.
In a transparent effort to combat the revelations of Israel’s apartheid policies and human rights abuses in recent letters to the editor, King and Weiser sponsored the lecture by Dr. Hamid in which he vehemently denied the role that the Israel/Palestine conflict played in the 9/11 attack, blaming it instead on Clinton’s weak response to the 1998 US embassy bombings. He claims to promote peace and love between all religions but advocates the curtailing of civil rights for American Muslims and more violence by the US against Muslims in the Middle East.
The American people need and want to understand the real roots of terrorism and what can be done to prevent further attacks. Groups like ALERT are doing the public a disservice by promoting thinly veiled pro-Israel messages by so-called experts that mask the real cause of anti-US sentiment in the Muslim world.
And radio hosts like Michael Conniff are playing right into their hands.
G-had my puter not HD crashed, I would respond with something more than what I can crank out on a cell-phone.
Follow the logic you posted if you like. I sat with you while you listened to Dr. Hamid, and this is what you post?
Am I disappointed? Thats not my place… Youre carrying the water for someone. If I se you right, yourself…
What if Dr. Hamid is right?
Cheers,
G-had my puter not HD crashed, I would respond with something more than what I can crank out on a cell-phone.
Follow the logic you posted if you like. I sat with you while you listened to Dr. Hamid, and this is what you post?
Am I disappointed? Thats not my place… Youre carrying the water for someone. If I se you right, yourself…
What if Dr. Hamid is right?
Cheers,
I was hoping to hear from you on this Mitch, and hope you can post more later.
I hadn’t had the time to research Hamid’s background before his appearance, and probably better that I didn’t. I might’ve asked a more pointed question. I certainly had my suspicions though, and they were confirmed when he denied ANY relationship between Islamic terrorism and US or Israeli policy. That just doesn’t jive with the overwhelming evidence and testimony of true experts on terrorism and Islamism. Not to mention the testimony of actual terrorists. Don’t you think it’s a little suspicious that he lays the entire blame on the religion of Islam? And don’t you think it’s suspicious that he speaks to and on behalf of Jewish organizations?
He talked a lot about teaching a new form of Islam, and reforming the religion, well guess what…he doesn’t teach, in any mosque or Islamic organization, or youth group, anywhere. In fact, he couldn’t teach in a mosque if he wanted to because he’s not an Islamic scholar. He speaks exclusively to Christians, Jews, and the general public. Hmmmm…
If he was indeed recruited by jihadis, then that is his only credential, and it is only his word we have to go by. The methods he described used to recruit young Muslims may well be legitimate, but that doesn’t negate the broader scope of terrorism which is a political tool. The motivations of the organization’s leaders may be kept from recruits. All they need to know is that if they blow themselves up, they’ll get to have sex in heaven. Having been part of a terrorist organization over twenty years ago doesn’t give Hamid the expertise to analyze the entire Islamic culture and attitude.
If there is absolutely no connection anywhere anytime between terrorist acts and US policy, then why have so many al Qaeda leaders told us there was? Should we believe a secular Arab with dubious ties to Jewish Israel-advocacy groups, or should we believe the guy we hold responsible for 9/11; Osama bin Laden?
What if this was just propaganda?
What if I’m right?
I was hoping to hear from you on this Mitch, and hope you can post more later.
I hadn’t had the time to research Hamid’s background before his appearance, and probably better that I didn’t. I might’ve asked a more pointed question. I certainly had my suspicions though, and they were confirmed when he denied ANY relationship between Islamic terrorism and US or Israeli policy. That just doesn’t jive with the overwhelming evidence and testimony of true experts on terrorism and Islamism. Not to mention the testimony of actual terrorists. Don’t you think it’s a little suspicious that he lays the entire blame on the religion of Islam? And don’t you think it’s suspicious that he speaks to and on behalf of Jewish organizations?
He talked a lot about teaching a new form of Islam, and reforming the religion, well guess what…he doesn’t teach, in any mosque or Islamic organization, or youth group, anywhere. In fact, he couldn’t teach in a mosque if he wanted to because he’s not an Islamic scholar. He speaks exclusively to Christians, Jews, and the general public. Hmmmm…
If he was indeed recruited by jihadis, then that is his only credential, and it is only his word we have to go by. The methods he described used to recruit young Muslims may well be legitimate, but that doesn’t negate the broader scope of terrorism which is a political tool. The motivations of the organization’s leaders may be kept from recruits. All they need to know is that if they blow themselves up, they’ll get to have sex in heaven. Having been part of a terrorist organization over twenty years ago doesn’t give Hamid the expertise to analyze the entire Islamic culture and attitude.
If there is absolutely no connection anywhere anytime between terrorist acts and US policy, then why have so many al Qaeda leaders told us there was? Should we believe a secular Arab with dubious ties to Jewish Israel-advocacy groups, or should we believe the guy we hold responsible for 9/11; Osama bin Laden?
What if this was just propaganda?
What if I’m right?
[...he couldn’t teach in a mosque if he wanted to because he’s not an Islamic scholar...]
To graduate from Abilene Christian University, I had to take twenty-one hours of biblical study… Does that make me a bilblical scholar? F*ck no. What’s your point?
[Having been part of a terrorist organization over twenty years ago doesn’t give Hamid the expertise to analyze the entire Islamic culture and attitude.]
Maybe. But it’s a richer context than you or I can bring to this conversation.
If youre right?
Maybe you’ll witness my execution.
Cheers,
[...he couldn’t teach in a mosque if he wanted to because he’s not an Islamic scholar...]
To graduate from Abilene Christian University, I had to take twenty-one hours of biblical study… Does that make me a bilblical scholar? F*ck no. What’s your point?
[Having been part of a terrorist organization over twenty years ago doesn’t give Hamid the expertise to analyze the entire Islamic culture and attitude.]
Maybe. But it’s a richer context than you or I can bring to this conversation.
If youre right?
Maybe you’ll witness my execution.
Cheers,
[In fact, Hamid’s only credentials are that he was allegedly recruited by a terrorist organization over twenty years ago.]
Reckless:
That credential alone would make me want to talk with Dr. Hamid at length. He was recruited by Al-Qaeda’s #2. Add that fat to the fire. And he has the courage to speak out.
That’s more than enough for me and means he belongs on the show.
I’ll let others draw their own conclusions, including you, Sue, but methinks you have to do some thinking beyond the Roaring Fork Peace Coalition. Look at what’s happening in Gaza–is that what we will see in a Palestinian state? What about the professed desire of the Palestinians to knock Israel off the face of the earth. For you, a person expecting to be ready with guns and ammo in the event of an apocalypse, that stance alone guarantnees the possibility of Armagedon.
As for Islam, I make the distinction over and over about Jihadism versus Islam. I am talking only about Jihadists–those who would kill any and all infidels who don’t endorse Sharia law. One fatwah after another by endless Imans know call for the destruction of you, Sue Gray, and me, and Mitch, and anyone in the world who won’t bow down to Allah–to THEIR version of Allah.
This is indisputable but you don’t want to see it.
Wake up and smell the bacon, baby, while you still can.
Best, Con Man!
[In fact, Hamid’s only credentials are that he was allegedly recruited by a terrorist organization over twenty years ago.]
Reckless:
That credential alone would make me want to talk with Dr. Hamid at length. He was recruited by Al-Qaeda’s #2. Add that fat to the fire. And he has the courage to speak out.
That’s more than enough for me and means he belongs on the show.
I’ll let others draw their own conclusions, including you, Sue, but methinks you have to do some thinking beyond the Roaring Fork Peace Coalition. Look at what’s happening in Gaza–is that what we will see in a Palestinian state? What about the professed desire of the Palestinians to knock Israel off the face of the earth. For you, a person expecting to be ready with guns and ammo in the event of an apocalypse, that stance alone guarantnees the possibility of Armagedon.
As for Islam, I make the distinction over and over about Jihadism versus Islam. I am talking only about Jihadists–those who would kill any and all infidels who don’t endorse Sharia law. One fatwah after another by endless Imans know call for the destruction of you, Sue Gray, and me, and Mitch, and anyone in the world who won’t bow down to Allah–to THEIR version of Allah.
This is indisputable but you don’t want to see it.
Wake up and smell the bacon, baby, while you still can.
Best, Con Man!
[To graduate from Abilene Christian University, I had to take twenty-one hours of biblical study... Does that make me a bilblical scholar? F*ck no. What's your point?]
Islam requires years of study and service to allow someone to teach. In the case of Dr. Hamid, he has no voice in the Islamic community because his message is so detrimental to the image of Muslims. CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) has denounced Hamid’s position as contributing to Islamophobia.
[“Having been part of a terrorist organization over twenty years ago doesn’t give Hamid the expertise to analyze the entire Islamic culture and attitude.” Maybe. But it's a richer context than you or I can bring to this conversation.]
But can’t you see how it’s contributing to the misinformation that the government and mainstream media are feeding us? The message is – It’s not our fault, there’s nothing we can do, it’s just that crazy Muslim religion. That’s dangerous for two reasons. One, it prevents us from making changes in our policies that CAN make a difference. Two, it contributes to prejudice and fear of all Muslims, which could lead to a Nazi Germany scenario. First demonize them, then curtail their civil liberties, then round them up and kill them.
[He was recruited by Al-Qaeda's #2. Add that fat to the fire. And he has the courage to speak out.]
You know for a fact that he was recruited by al Qaeda’s #2? Remember, the Congress was swayed to give permission for Gulf War I on the testimony of a weeping Kuwaiti girl describing Saddam’s soldiers ripping babies out of hospital incubators and throwing them on the floor. Turns out that was the Kuwaiti ambassador’s daughter and the story was cooked up by a PR firm.
Face it Michael, you really don’t know who Hamid is or his background, none of us do. And remember, he does get paid for speaking and he is trying to sell a book. Don’t you think it’s strange that he speaks almost exclusively to and for Jewish groups? He’s not bringing his message to the Muslim community, why is that?
[That's more than enough for me and means he belongs on the show. ]
I agree…ONCE. I would’ve given you that, but TWICE? Nah ah. Especially after I heard him speak Monday evening, and then researched his background. Sorry dude, your theme song is “Won’t get fooled again” and isn’t your show named Con Games for a reason?
I don’t see you giving air time to the Peace Coalition, or Muslim clerics like Ibrahim Kazarooni, or even just a Muslim citizen. What’s up with that?
[As for Islam, I make the distinction over and over about Jihadism versus Islam. I am talking only about Jihadists--those who would kill any and all infidels who don't endorse Sharia law.]
I know YOU are Michael, but Hamid wasn’t. He said MOST moderate Muslims and MOST American mosques condone or promote jihad. That is a scary statement, which even you were taken aback by in the interview. I thought I detected a bit of skepticism in your voice on that one.
[One fatwah after another by endless Imans know call for the destruction of you, Sue Gray, and me, and Mitch, and anyone in the world who won't bow down to Allah--to THEIR version of Allah.
This is indisputable but you don't want to see it.]
That’s exaggerated paranoia don’t you think? How many Imam’s and how many fatwahs? This makes my point perfectly. The message that Dr. Hamid is giving us is feeding the myth that jihadism is pervasive and dangerous. This is not useful to combat terrorism, in fact it’s just going to lead to Americans condoning the murder of more Muslims, and an attack on Iran.
Dr. Hamid is part of the propaganda machine. If you don’t want to be a part of conning Americans into another military conflict and the slaughter of more Muslims, then do some interviews that present the other side once in awhile.
Did someone say bacon?
[To graduate from Abilene Christian University, I had to take twenty-one hours of biblical study... Does that make me a bilblical scholar? F*ck no. What's your point?]
Islam requires years of study and service to allow someone to teach. In the case of Dr. Hamid, he has no voice in the Islamic community because his message is so detrimental to the image of Muslims. CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) has denounced Hamid’s position as contributing to Islamophobia.
[“Having been part of a terrorist organization over twenty years ago doesn’t give Hamid the expertise to analyze the entire Islamic culture and attitude.” Maybe. But it's a richer context than you or I can bring to this conversation.]
But can’t you see how it’s contributing to the misinformation that the government and mainstream media are feeding us? The message is – It’s not our fault, there’s nothing we can do, it’s just that crazy Muslim religion. That’s dangerous for two reasons. One, it prevents us from making changes in our policies that CAN make a difference. Two, it contributes to prejudice and fear of all Muslims, which could lead to a Nazi Germany scenario. First demonize them, then curtail their civil liberties, then round them up and kill them.
[He was recruited by Al-Qaeda's #2. Add that fat to the fire. And he has the courage to speak out.]
You know for a fact that he was recruited by al Qaeda’s #2? Remember, the Congress was swayed to give permission for Gulf War I on the testimony of a weeping Kuwaiti girl describing Saddam’s soldiers ripping babies out of hospital incubators and throwing them on the floor. Turns out that was the Kuwaiti ambassador’s daughter and the story was cooked up by a PR firm.
Face it Michael, you really don’t know who Hamid is or his background, none of us do. And remember, he does get paid for speaking and he is trying to sell a book. Don’t you think it’s strange that he speaks almost exclusively to and for Jewish groups? He’s not bringing his message to the Muslim community, why is that?
[That's more than enough for me and means he belongs on the show. ]
I agree…ONCE. I would’ve given you that, but TWICE? Nah ah. Especially after I heard him speak Monday evening, and then researched his background. Sorry dude, your theme song is “Won’t get fooled again” and isn’t your show named Con Games for a reason?
I don’t see you giving air time to the Peace Coalition, or Muslim clerics like Ibrahim Kazarooni, or even just a Muslim citizen. What’s up with that?
[As for Islam, I make the distinction over and over about Jihadism versus Islam. I am talking only about Jihadists--those who would kill any and all infidels who don't endorse Sharia law.]
I know YOU are Michael, but Hamid wasn’t. He said MOST moderate Muslims and MOST American mosques condone or promote jihad. That is a scary statement, which even you were taken aback by in the interview. I thought I detected a bit of skepticism in your voice on that one.
[One fatwah after another by endless Imans know call for the destruction of you, Sue Gray, and me, and Mitch, and anyone in the world who won't bow down to Allah--to THEIR version of Allah.
This is indisputable but you don't want to see it.]
That’s exaggerated paranoia don’t you think? How many Imam’s and how many fatwahs? This makes my point perfectly. The message that Dr. Hamid is giving us is feeding the myth that jihadism is pervasive and dangerous. This is not useful to combat terrorism, in fact it’s just going to lead to Americans condoning the murder of more Muslims, and an attack on Iran.
Dr. Hamid is part of the propaganda machine. If you don’t want to be a part of conning Americans into another military conflict and the slaughter of more Muslims, then do some interviews that present the other side once in awhile.
Did someone say bacon?
One more thing…
[Look at what's happening in Gaza--is that what we will see in a Palestinian state? What about the professed desire of the Palestinians to knock Israel off the face of the earth.]
Are you saying the Palestinian’s hatred of Israel is religion based, that it follows Dr. Hamid’s formula? The Palestinians want to destroy Israel because they are Jews not Muslims? Come on, you don’t really believe that do you?
One more thing…
[Look at what's happening in Gaza--is that what we will see in a Palestinian state? What about the professed desire of the Palestinians to knock Israel off the face of the earth.]
Are you saying the Palestinian’s hatred of Israel is religion based, that it follows Dr. Hamid’s formula? The Palestinians want to destroy Israel because they are Jews not Muslims? Come on, you don’t really believe that do you?
Hamid’s Muslim credentials lacking? What about Sue Grey’s? Since when did she graduate from a Madrassa?
Sue is somehow an expert on everything Mideast, but a guy who’s actually Muslim and from the Mideast is flawed as an expert?
That’s beyond ridiculous.
Hamid’s Muslim credentials lacking? What about Sue Grey’s? Since when did she graduate from a Madrassa?
Sue is somehow an expert on everything Mideast, but a guy who’s actually Muslim and from the Mideast is flawed as an expert?
That’s beyond ridiculous.
I didn’t say his Muslim credentials were lacking, I said being part of a terrorist organization doesn’t give him the right to say that his experience reflects what the majority of moderate Muslims think.
Hamid didn’t graduate from a Madrassa and neither did I, but I know a bit more about Islam than most non Muslim Americans.
I’m not claiming to be an expert on the Middle East, I’m just practicing healthy skepticism about Americans being led to believe that we must wipe out jihadism with miltary action.
After being misled into Gulf War 1 & 2, I’m wary of anything that smacks of propaganda.
I didn’t say his Muslim credentials were lacking, I said being part of a terrorist organization doesn’t give him the right to say that his experience reflects what the majority of moderate Muslims think.
Hamid didn’t graduate from a Madrassa and neither did I, but I know a bit more about Islam than most non Muslim Americans.
I’m not claiming to be an expert on the Middle East, I’m just practicing healthy skepticism about Americans being led to believe that we must wipe out jihadism with miltary action.
After being misled into Gulf War 1 & 2, I’m wary of anything that smacks of propaganda.
G,
I think you are bending over backwards to discredit Dr. Hamid.
[Don’t you think it’s a little suspicious that he lays the entire blame on the religion of Islam?]
No. This view comports with my own, studied conclusions. Jihadist terrorism is neither a mere impulse to mayhem, nor a desperate response to U.S. policy. It is a religious movement that springs from a deeply believed-in schism of Islamic doctrine.
[And don’t you think it’s suspicious that he speaks to and on behalf of Jewish organizations?]
What? If Dr. Hamid agrees to speak at your nemesis’, ALERT’s, behest, this impugns his credibility? Frankly, this form of attack is beneath you.
This is about the same caliber of argument you proffer about Dr. Hamid’s stature in the Muslim community. My Arabic is piss poor, so for all I know, Dr. Hamid could have been calling us fools and idiots Monday night. Nevertheless, I choose to think he cited passages from the Qu’ran and the Hadith, and his assertion—that the Islamic doctrine of the personalization of Jihad, mass murder, female subjugation, et. al. must change—is irrefutable.
Your characterization that Dr. Hamid’s message is “dangerous” misses the point entirely. You assert that his message constitutes a cureless problem that will result in a Nazi-style genocide of the Muslim peoples, and in doing so, you close your eyes to the fact that a specific form of terrorism—Muslims who are willing to sacrifice their life to kill others—will remain a reality until Islam removes these recusant doctrinal tenets.
For me, the question is, “To what extent is Jihadist Islam orthodoxy?” Up until Monday evening, I held a clear distinction between Muslims and Jihadists. Dr. Hamid tore down this distinction in my mind. While there are obviously millions of Muslims who are not now and will never chose to join al Qaeda or some other Jihadist group, bin Laden, al Zawahiri, and other Jihadist leaders energetically and persistently claim the mantle of Islamic orthodoxy, and no one in the Muslim community stops them. Dr. Hamid asserts, and I agree, this silence is tacit approval.
The other day you wrote, “[I]t’s not bin Laden’s mind we’re trying to change, it’s the [minds of] future generations of Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians.” On Monday night, Dr. Hamid explained what in the Muslim mind must change to realize this worthy goal.
I thought you heard.
Cheers,
G,
I think you are bending over backwards to discredit Dr. Hamid.
[Don’t you think it’s a little suspicious that he lays the entire blame on the religion of Islam?]
No. This view comports with my own, studied conclusions. Jihadist terrorism is neither a mere impulse to mayhem, nor a desperate response to U.S. policy. It is a religious movement that springs from a deeply believed-in schism of Islamic doctrine.
[And don’t you think it’s suspicious that he speaks to and on behalf of Jewish organizations?]
What? If Dr. Hamid agrees to speak at your nemesis’, ALERT’s, behest, this impugns his credibility? Frankly, this form of attack is beneath you.
This is about the same caliber of argument you proffer about Dr. Hamid’s stature in the Muslim community. My Arabic is piss poor, so for all I know, Dr. Hamid could have been calling us fools and idiots Monday night. Nevertheless, I choose to think he cited passages from the Qu’ran and the Hadith, and his assertion—that the Islamic doctrine of the personalization of Jihad, mass murder, female subjugation, et. al. must change—is irrefutable.
Your characterization that Dr. Hamid’s message is “dangerous” misses the point entirely. You assert that his message constitutes a cureless problem that will result in a Nazi-style genocide of the Muslim peoples, and in doing so, you close your eyes to the fact that a specific form of terrorism—Muslims who are willing to sacrifice their life to kill others—will remain a reality until Islam removes these recusant doctrinal tenets.
For me, the question is, “To what extent is Jihadist Islam orthodoxy?” Up until Monday evening, I held a clear distinction between Muslims and Jihadists. Dr. Hamid tore down this distinction in my mind. While there are obviously millions of Muslims who are not now and will never chose to join al Qaeda or some other Jihadist group, bin Laden, al Zawahiri, and other Jihadist leaders energetically and persistently claim the mantle of Islamic orthodoxy, and no one in the Muslim community stops them. Dr. Hamid asserts, and I agree, this silence is tacit approval.
The other day you wrote, “[I]t’s not bin Laden’s mind we’re trying to change, it’s the [minds of] future generations of Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians.” On Monday night, Dr. Hamid explained what in the Muslim mind must change to realize this worthy goal.
I thought you heard.
Cheers,
[Jihadist terrorism is neither a mere impulse to mayhem, nor a desperate response to U.S. policy. It is a religious movement that springs from a deeply believed-in schism of Islamic doctrine.]
I agree. My problem with Hamid’s message is that it completely left out the reason jihadists target the US as opposed to Canada or Norway. His explanation that it’s because we’re powerful…AND weak, just doesn’t cut it. If he had given us the psychology of recruiting jihadis along with even a small acknowledgement of the true cause of their hatred for us, I would’ve been satisfied. But to completely deny any connection when there is so much evidence to the contrary, makes his message seem more like propaganda than truth. Why is America the “Great Satan?” They don’t call us that for nuthin!
[What? If Dr. Hamid agrees to speak at your nemesis’, ALERT’s, behest, this impugns his credibility? Frankly, this form of attack is beneath you.]
Didn’t he say he was bringing a new interpretation of Islam to the Islamic community? Isn’t he billed as a reformer? Who is he reforming if he’s not speaking to Muslims? This is so obvious. He speaks at Jewish organized events in order to give them what they want to hear. To absolve them of any guilt over Israel’s despicable behavior. To give Americans like you reason to suspect not just a small minority of radical Muslims, but ALL Muslims. Don’t you see where this is leading? With people like Hamid speaking to communities all around the nation, the propaganda against Muslims is seeping in to our psyche. Hamid advocates that Muslims in America should be discriminated against for their religion and have their freedom of speech and worship curtailed. THAT is scary.
[On Monday night, Dr. Hamid explained what in the Muslim mind must change to realize this worthy goal.]
If Hamid wants to transform Islam and change the Muslim mind, speaking to Jews is not going to do it. I’m convinced that this is all part of the propaganda machine leading up to an attack on Iran and the further oppression and slaughter of Muslims not only in the Middle East, but here in America. That would make the Jews very happy. Sounds like it would alleviate your fears also.
[Jihadist terrorism is neither a mere impulse to mayhem, nor a desperate response to U.S. policy. It is a religious movement that springs from a deeply believed-in schism of Islamic doctrine.]
I agree. My problem with Hamid’s message is that it completely left out the reason jihadists target the US as opposed to Canada or Norway. His explanation that it’s because we’re powerful…AND weak, just doesn’t cut it. If he had given us the psychology of recruiting jihadis along with even a small acknowledgement of the true cause of their hatred for us, I would’ve been satisfied. But to completely deny any connection when there is so much evidence to the contrary, makes his message seem more like propaganda than truth. Why is America the “Great Satan?” They don’t call us that for nuthin!
[What? If Dr. Hamid agrees to speak at your nemesis’, ALERT’s, behest, this impugns his credibility? Frankly, this form of attack is beneath you.]
Didn’t he say he was bringing a new interpretation of Islam to the Islamic community? Isn’t he billed as a reformer? Who is he reforming if he’s not speaking to Muslims? This is so obvious. He speaks at Jewish organized events in order to give them what they want to hear. To absolve them of any guilt over Israel’s despicable behavior. To give Americans like you reason to suspect not just a small minority of radical Muslims, but ALL Muslims. Don’t you see where this is leading? With people like Hamid speaking to communities all around the nation, the propaganda against Muslims is seeping in to our psyche. Hamid advocates that Muslims in America should be discriminated against for their religion and have their freedom of speech and worship curtailed. THAT is scary.
[On Monday night, Dr. Hamid explained what in the Muslim mind must change to realize this worthy goal.]
If Hamid wants to transform Islam and change the Muslim mind, speaking to Jews is not going to do it. I’m convinced that this is all part of the propaganda machine leading up to an attack on Iran and the further oppression and slaughter of Muslims not only in the Middle East, but here in America. That would make the Jews very happy. Sounds like it would alleviate your fears also.
[Hamid advocates that Muslims in America should be discriminated against for their religion and have their freedom of speech and worship curtailed.]
Citation please.
[If Hamid wants to transform Islam and change the Muslim mind, speaking to Jews is not going to do it.]
Could it be that Dr. Hamid speaks to Jews and Christians because they are the people who will listen?
You don’t like to be called anti-semitic, but it’s OK to suggest me and the Jewish community would like to see Muslims the world over slaughtered…
Like I said before, you play hardest when your argument’s weak.
Cheers,
[Hamid advocates that Muslims in America should be discriminated against for their religion and have their freedom of speech and worship curtailed.]
Citation please.
[If Hamid wants to transform Islam and change the Muslim mind, speaking to Jews is not going to do it.]
Could it be that Dr. Hamid speaks to Jews and Christians because they are the people who will listen?
You don’t like to be called anti-semitic, but it’s OK to suggest me and the Jewish community would like to see Muslims the world over slaughtered…
Like I said before, you play hardest when your argument’s weak.
Cheers,
[Citation please.]
You were there, you heard him say one of the problems is that we allow Muslims so much freedom in America.
Here’s a citation concerning the headscarf which the majority of Muslim women who wear one, CHOOSE to for the sake of modesty.
“The Hejab has become a most powerful symbol of arrogance in the Muslim society that keeps the phenomenon of Islamism surviving. It is both a manifestation and a potentiating catalyst for the phenomenon of Islamism itself. Without ending it, Islamism will continue to grow. It will affect the future of our civilization and will drag it to a destructive clash of civilizations.
In my personal view ending the phenomenon of Hejab is one factor that would have a dramatic impact on ending violent Islamism. However, it will need the integration of legislative, political, media, intelligence, and few other essential components.”
Say what! Legislative, political, media…to end the phenomenon of Hejab? Forcibly taking away a Muslim woman’s right to express her religious beliefs. I guess we should make the Amish wear colorful Hawaiian shirts and force them to use electricity. Then we’ll work on getting the Buddhist monks to wear pants instead of robes.
Here is a quote from a review;
“Hamid wants his religion to become more free, more tolerant, more open to secular pleasures — like baseball — and more accepting of criticism.”
So…he wants them to be more like us. I seem to recall the Christians trying to do that to native societies all over the world. Very few of those native societies and customs are left. No wonder the Muslim’s are afraid of Western influence!
And here’s a little example of Hamid towing the company line;
“As a matter of honesty, Israel is the only light of democracy, civilization, and human rights in the whole Middle East.
We kicked out the Jews with no compensation or mercy from most of the Arab countries to make them “Jews-Free countries” while Israel accepted more than a million Arabs to live there, have its nationality, and enjoy their rights as human beings. In Israel, women can not be beaten legally by men, and any person can change his/her belief system with no fear of being killed by the Islamic law of ‘Apostasy,’ while in our Islamic world people do not enjoy any of these rights.
I agree that the ‘Palestinians’ suffer, but they suffer because of their corrupt leaders and not because of Israel.”
Oh brother! I can’t even count the number of times I’ve heard this coming from a Jewish person. This guy’s picture should be in Webster’s under “Uncle Tom.”
And there’s this paragraph from Hamid’s “The Roots of Jihad,” which precedes a list titled; Recommendations for western governments and other decision makers:
“The type of Islam that has been dominating the Islamic world at present, promotes the violent understanding of Islam. Proper reformation can resolve this predicament which threatens both the world’s security and our values of freedom and liberty. Fundamental treatment is needed for this complexity if we are serious about solving it.”
This presents a false view that over 1.2 billion people who practice Islam in the world are being taught violence. It promotes the idea that Islam threatens our “freedom and liberty.” Hmmm…where have I heard that before? And worst of all, it calls for “fundamental treatment,” presumably by governments with the use of force, which translates to Crusades.
[Could it be that Dr. Hamid speaks to Jews and Christians because they are the people who will listen?]
Yeah they’re listening all right, because just like you admitted, it confirms their beliefs, and takes the burden of responsibility off of them. What Hamid is doing is getting support from the public for laws against wearing the Hejab, practicing Sharia Law, speaking out against the occupation of Palestine.
[You don't like to be called anti-semitic, but it's OK to suggest me and the Jewish community would like to see Muslims the world over slaughtered...]
Anyone who buys into the notion that more force is needed against the people who practice Islam to subdue them, civilize them, and make them behave more like us, is condoning genocide.
[Citation please.]
You were there, you heard him say one of the problems is that we allow Muslims so much freedom in America.
Here’s a citation concerning the headscarf which the majority of Muslim women who wear one, CHOOSE to for the sake of modesty.
“The Hejab has become a most powerful symbol of arrogance in the Muslim society that keeps the phenomenon of Islamism surviving. It is both a manifestation and a potentiating catalyst for the phenomenon of Islamism itself. Without ending it, Islamism will continue to grow. It will affect the future of our civilization and will drag it to a destructive clash of civilizations.
In my personal view ending the phenomenon of Hejab is one factor that would have a dramatic impact on ending violent Islamism. However, it will need the integration of legislative, political, media, intelligence, and few other essential components.”
Say what! Legislative, political, media…to end the phenomenon of Hejab? Forcibly taking away a Muslim woman’s right to express her religious beliefs. I guess we should make the Amish wear colorful Hawaiian shirts and force them to use electricity. Then we’ll work on getting the Buddhist monks to wear pants instead of robes.
Here is a quote from a review;
“Hamid wants his religion to become more free, more tolerant, more open to secular pleasures — like baseball — and more accepting of criticism.”
So…he wants them to be more like us. I seem to recall the Christians trying to do that to native societies all over the world. Very few of those native societies and customs are left. No wonder the Muslim’s are afraid of Western influence!
And here’s a little example of Hamid towing the company line;
“As a matter of honesty, Israel is the only light of democracy, civilization, and human rights in the whole Middle East.
We kicked out the Jews with no compensation or mercy from most of the Arab countries to make them “Jews-Free countries” while Israel accepted more than a million Arabs to live there, have its nationality, and enjoy their rights as human beings. In Israel, women can not be beaten legally by men, and any person can change his/her belief system with no fear of being killed by the Islamic law of ‘Apostasy,’ while in our Islamic world people do not enjoy any of these rights.
I agree that the ‘Palestinians’ suffer, but they suffer because of their corrupt leaders and not because of Israel.”
Oh brother! I can’t even count the number of times I’ve heard this coming from a Jewish person. This guy’s picture should be in Webster’s under “Uncle Tom.”
And there’s this paragraph from Hamid’s “The Roots of Jihad,” which precedes a list titled; Recommendations for western governments and other decision makers:
“The type of Islam that has been dominating the Islamic world at present, promotes the violent understanding of Islam. Proper reformation can resolve this predicament which threatens both the world’s security and our values of freedom and liberty. Fundamental treatment is needed for this complexity if we are serious about solving it.”
This presents a false view that over 1.2 billion people who practice Islam in the world are being taught violence. It promotes the idea that Islam threatens our “freedom and liberty.” Hmmm…where have I heard that before? And worst of all, it calls for “fundamental treatment,” presumably by governments with the use of force, which translates to Crusades.
[Could it be that Dr. Hamid speaks to Jews and Christians because they are the people who will listen?]
Yeah they’re listening all right, because just like you admitted, it confirms their beliefs, and takes the burden of responsibility off of them. What Hamid is doing is getting support from the public for laws against wearing the Hejab, practicing Sharia Law, speaking out against the occupation of Palestine.
[You don't like to be called anti-semitic, but it's OK to suggest me and the Jewish community would like to see Muslims the world over slaughtered...]
Anyone who buys into the notion that more force is needed against the people who practice Islam to subdue them, civilize them, and make them behave more like us, is condoning genocide.
[Anyone who buys into the notion that more force is needed against the people who practice Islam to subdue them, civilize them, and make them behave more like us, is condoning genocide.]
Wu wei
Cheers,
[Anyone who buys into the notion that more force is needed against the people who practice Islam to subdue them, civilize them, and make them behave more like us, is condoning genocide.]
Wu wei
Cheers,
When a country obtains great power, it becomes like the sea, all streams run down into it.
The more powerful it grows, the greater the need for humility.
Humility means trusting the Tao, thus never needing to be defensive.
A great nation is like a great man; when he makes a mistake, he realizes it. Having realized it, he admits it. Having admitted it, he corrects it.
He considers those who point out his faults as his most benevolent teachers.
He thinks of his enemy as the shadow that he himself casts.
If a nation is centered in the Tao, if it nourishes its own people and doesn’t meddle in the affairs of others, it will be a light to all nations in the world.
Tao te Ching – chapter 61
When a country obtains great power, it becomes like the sea, all streams run down into it.
The more powerful it grows, the greater the need for humility.
Humility means trusting the Tao, thus never needing to be defensive.
A great nation is like a great man; when he makes a mistake, he realizes it. Having realized it, he admits it. Having admitted it, he corrects it.
He considers those who point out his faults as his most benevolent teachers.
He thinks of his enemy as the shadow that he himself casts.
If a nation is centered in the Tao, if it nourishes its own people and doesn’t meddle in the affairs of others, it will be a light to all nations in the world.
Tao te Ching – chapter 61
The following is an example of someone with legitimate credentials for critiquing Islamic culture and who takes a balanced approach in naming the causes of terrorism as BOTH a radical interpretation of the Koran and US foreign policy.
Liberal Islam, Radical Islam and American Foreign Policy by M. A. Muqtedar Khan
Dr. Muqtedar Khan is Assistant Professor of Political Science at Adrian College in Michigan. He is a Visiting Fellow at Brookings Institution and a Fellow of the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding. He earned his Ph.D. in International Relations, Political Philosophy, and Islamic Political Thought from Georgetown University in May 2000.
“There are two principal causes for Muslim anti-Americanism; they are the manifestly unjust consequences of current and past American foreign policies towards the Muslim World and the use of America as the “designated other” in Islamist discourses seeking to reconstruct an Islamic identity and create a global Islamic political power. The Islamist discourse has constructed the idea of an Islamic civilization in direct opposition to a caricaturized West. Islamists first define the contemporary realities of the West as imperial, morally decadent, unGodly (secular) and Western power and values as cause of all Muslim problems. They then imagine a revived Islamic civilization as just, moral and god-centered or essential an anti-thesis of their imagined west. Thus the defeat of the West and rejection of Western values (as depicted by Islamists) is necessary for the revival of Islam.
Political, military, economic and intellectual independence from the West has always been the overriding goal of political Islam. However, the failure of Islamists to achieve these goals in nearly a century, in combination with real and perceived injustices committed by America and its allies against Muslims has engendered an extremely vitriolic hatred of America in the hearts of some Islamists giving birth to radical Islam. I like to call these radicals as rogue Islamists, who are willing to do anything, absolutely anything to destroy America and its power and will to prevent the realization of Islamist goals. Rogue Islamists and their hateful discourses are globalizing anti-Americanism and in the process undermining the moral fabric of the Muslim World and corrupting the Islam’s message of justice, mercy, submission, compassion and enlightenment, not of war, hatred and killing.
Rogue Islamists are a threat to both America and Islam. Their discourses are corrupting Islam and generating hatred against the west, modernity and America. Their most powerful weapon is their ideas and their ability to convince Muslims to even give up their lives in order to hurt America, Americans and American interests. While America seeks security from the attacks by rogue Muslims and needs to reduce anti-Americanism, moderate Muslims who do not subscribe to the Islamists discourse seek to rescue Islam and innocent Muslims from the corrupting influence of rogue Islamist.”
http://www.ijtihad.org/liberal-islam.doc
The following is an example of someone with legitimate credentials for critiquing Islamic culture and who takes a balanced approach in naming the causes of terrorism as BOTH a radical interpretation of the Koran and US foreign policy.
Liberal Islam, Radical Islam and American Foreign Policy by M. A. Muqtedar Khan
Dr. Muqtedar Khan is Assistant Professor of Political Science at Adrian College in Michigan. He is a Visiting Fellow at Brookings Institution and a Fellow of the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding. He earned his Ph.D. in International Relations, Political Philosophy, and Islamic Political Thought from Georgetown University in May 2000.
“There are two principal causes for Muslim anti-Americanism; they are the manifestly unjust consequences of current and past American foreign policies towards the Muslim World and the use of America as the “designated other” in Islamist discourses seeking to reconstruct an Islamic identity and create a global Islamic political power. The Islamist discourse has constructed the idea of an Islamic civilization in direct opposition to a caricaturized West. Islamists first define the contemporary realities of the West as imperial, morally decadent, unGodly (secular) and Western power and values as cause of all Muslim problems. They then imagine a revived Islamic civilization as just, moral and god-centered or essential an anti-thesis of their imagined west. Thus the defeat of the West and rejection of Western values (as depicted by Islamists) is necessary for the revival of Islam.
Political, military, economic and intellectual independence from the West has always been the overriding goal of political Islam. However, the failure of Islamists to achieve these goals in nearly a century, in combination with real and perceived injustices committed by America and its allies against Muslims has engendered an extremely vitriolic hatred of America in the hearts of some Islamists giving birth to radical Islam. I like to call these radicals as rogue Islamists, who are willing to do anything, absolutely anything to destroy America and its power and will to prevent the realization of Islamist goals. Rogue Islamists and their hateful discourses are globalizing anti-Americanism and in the process undermining the moral fabric of the Muslim World and corrupting the Islam’s message of justice, mercy, submission, compassion and enlightenment, not of war, hatred and killing.
Rogue Islamists are a threat to both America and Islam. Their discourses are corrupting Islam and generating hatred against the west, modernity and America. Their most powerful weapon is their ideas and their ability to convince Muslims to even give up their lives in order to hurt America, Americans and American interests. While America seeks security from the attacks by rogue Muslims and needs to reduce anti-Americanism, moderate Muslims who do not subscribe to the Islamists discourse seek to rescue Islam and innocent Muslims from the corrupting influence of rogue Islamist.”
http://www.ijtihad.org/liberal-islam.doc
Mitch and Sue;
is it possible that you are both correct about this situation? I be thinking so; our present engagement in the M.E. is a self fulfilling prophecy. Our Foreign Policy in that area is neither beneficial for the well being of the state, nor merely benign. It is for the benefit of the the various contractors and other tax dollar consuming economic parasites. If, for some quite logical reason including an agenda dedicated to the well being of this nation state, the policy were changed comprehensively with reduction of fossil fuel consumption, leaving Israel to deal with it’s policies, and strategic and tactical disengagement from the M.E. I would say that Sue is correct on this. It is a course that I think Mitch would prefer to the grim reality that being rational and acting with honorable common sense is not our policy — which is why Mitch is most likely going to be correct.
But what does that mean to us, with families, loving and loved? A dual policy. One where we seek to mitigate the idiocy emanating from the halls of congress and the outhouse sometime in the past the White House. The second is vigilant due diligence, with family, in and around home, work and schools, just to have the disciplined habits, that lead to an increased probability of the better life as defined by personal desires. Hopefully this doesn’t mean descent into drunken lout status.
Both suggestions are independant of Islamic Arabic Israeli sympathizers, jihadist heretics, Taliban Christianite Bush lovers, Richard Milhous Nixon and even Michael Jackson. You might need Paris Hilton though, that hotel situation might be critical. We the people should not support any candidate who supports this contractor welfare war, i.e. the Iraqi front or facade for tax dollar laundering, in place of domestic security.
It isn’t like I haven’t asked, but what would the runout cost of the Iraqi parasite mean if invested in secure borders, shipping containers, monotoring ingress and egress, South and North of the border? Alternative energy development and conservation, educating our people with US birth certificates to become citizens? Universal healthcare — this may increase the ability to co-ordinate response to any hypothetical attack, instead of begging the HMOs of accountants, for real health care.
We have been hoping a maneating leopard will bathe it’s spots away, instead of demanding and taking measures to protect our loved ones. With thousands dead from 9/11 and Katrina, thousands more dead after being sent to Iraq (whatever the justification), we are still hoping that this government will actually act with responsibility. That’s insanity. When subpoenas for treason are on the table, you can bet responsibility will be around the corner. That is what we should be doing, and right now.
I am not the only one saying it, thinking it or wanting it. Power has a funny way of getting miscreants to behave, if only in their immediate self interest — that next breath. Remember; mere geographical location was the difference between being a casualty or knowing one and not being a part of the loss. You can be a fixed with negative statistical variables or take action against this government when you vote, protest, write letters, organise and demand accountability, to mitgate those variables. Unless you subscribe to the fates, and are presently listening for the sirens gently singing. Occaisionally, the government needs to be re-educated to understand that they are the employees and we are not their minions and pawns.
Who would draft a letter demanding charges of treason against the people, by leaders in govt, and sign it? Who would you send it to and are there specific people deserving listing for their deeds.
Mitch and Sue;
is it possible that you are both correct about this situation? I be thinking so; our present engagement in the M.E. is a self fulfilling prophecy. Our Foreign Policy in that area is neither beneficial for the well being of the state, nor merely benign. It is for the benefit of the the various contractors and other tax dollar consuming economic parasites. If, for some quite logical reason including an agenda dedicated to the well being of this nation state, the policy were changed comprehensively with reduction of fossil fuel consumption, leaving Israel to deal with it’s policies, and strategic and tactical disengagement from the M.E. I would say that Sue is correct on this. It is a course that I think Mitch would prefer to the grim reality that being rational and acting with honorable common sense is not our policy — which is why Mitch is most likely going to be correct.
But what does that mean to us, with families, loving and loved? A dual policy. One where we seek to mitigate the idiocy emanating from the halls of congress and the outhouse sometime in the past the White House. The second is vigilant due diligence, with family, in and around home, work and schools, just to have the disciplined habits, that lead to an increased probability of the better life as defined by personal desires. Hopefully this doesn’t mean descent into drunken lout status.
Both suggestions are independant of Islamic Arabic Israeli sympathizers, jihadist heretics, Taliban Christianite Bush lovers, Richard Milhous Nixon and even Michael Jackson. You might need Paris Hilton though, that hotel situation might be critical. We the people should not support any candidate who supports this contractor welfare war, i.e. the Iraqi front or facade for tax dollar laundering, in place of domestic security.
It isn’t like I haven’t asked, but what would the runout cost of the Iraqi parasite mean if invested in secure borders, shipping containers, monotoring ingress and egress, South and North of the border? Alternative energy development and conservation, educating our people with US birth certificates to become citizens? Universal healthcare — this may increase the ability to co-ordinate response to any hypothetical attack, instead of begging the HMOs of accountants, for real health care.
We have been hoping a maneating leopard will bathe it’s spots away, instead of demanding and taking measures to protect our loved ones. With thousands dead from 9/11 and Katrina, thousands more dead after being sent to Iraq (whatever the justification), we are still hoping that this government will actually act with responsibility. That’s insanity. When subpoenas for treason are on the table, you can bet responsibility will be around the corner. That is what we should be doing, and right now.
I am not the only one saying it, thinking it or wanting it. Power has a funny way of getting miscreants to behave, if only in their immediate self interest — that next breath. Remember; mere geographical location was the difference between being a casualty or knowing one and not being a part of the loss. You can be a fixed with negative statistical variables or take action against this government when you vote, protest, write letters, organise and demand accountability, to mitgate those variables. Unless you subscribe to the fates, and are presently listening for the sirens gently singing. Occaisionally, the government needs to be re-educated to understand that they are the employees and we are not their minions and pawns.
Who would draft a letter demanding charges of treason against the people, by leaders in govt, and sign it? Who would you send it to and are there specific people deserving listing for their deeds.
Ed,
[If… the policy were changed comprehensively with reduction of fossil fuel consumption, leaving Israel to deal with it's policies, and strategic and tactical disengagement from the M.E. I would say that Sue is correct on this. It is a course that I think Mitch would prefer to the grim reality that being rational and acting with honorable common sense is not our policy -- which is why Mitch is most likely going to be correct.]
Energy and ME policy notwithstanding, no policy we change will satisfy the Jihadists. Where the question of protecting the lives of Americans is concerned, assigning blame to this person or that policy is pissing into the wind.
Is a Jihadist an enemy?
If a person comes into America to commit mass murder, in my mind the answer is Yes.
If I seek knowledge about how a Muslim can declare an allegiance to a terrorist group and seek the death of innocents, I am on a path to understanding this enemy.
I don’t have anything like all the answers, but I have concluded that at the heart of the problem is a belief in a schismatic Islamic doctrine…
Take, for example, the people who planted car bombs in London last night. I’m don’t know whether they were Jihadists, but I do know they weren’t Methodists from Sandusky.
Of course, I could be approaching this all wrong…
[…being rational and acting with honorable common sense is not our policy…]
“Banish wisdom, discard knowledge, and the people will be benefited a hundredfold.”
~Tao Te Ching, Chapter 19
Cheers,
Ed,
[If… the policy were changed comprehensively with reduction of fossil fuel consumption, leaving Israel to deal with it's policies, and strategic and tactical disengagement from the M.E. I would say that Sue is correct on this. It is a course that I think Mitch would prefer to the grim reality that being rational and acting with honorable common sense is not our policy -- which is why Mitch is most likely going to be correct.]
Energy and ME policy notwithstanding, no policy we change will satisfy the Jihadists. Where the question of protecting the lives of Americans is concerned, assigning blame to this person or that policy is pissing into the wind.
Is a Jihadist an enemy?
If a person comes into America to commit mass murder, in my mind the answer is Yes.
If I seek knowledge about how a Muslim can declare an allegiance to a terrorist group and seek the death of innocents, I am on a path to understanding this enemy.
I don’t have anything like all the answers, but I have concluded that at the heart of the problem is a belief in a schismatic Islamic doctrine…
Take, for example, the people who planted car bombs in London last night. I’m don’t know whether they were Jihadists, but I do know they weren’t Methodists from Sandusky.
Of course, I could be approaching this all wrong…
[…being rational and acting with honorable common sense is not our policy…]
“Banish wisdom, discard knowledge, and the people will be benefited a hundredfold.”
~Tao Te Ching, Chapter 19
Cheers,
Reckless:
[The myth that jihadism is pervasive and dangerous.]
Holy Moley, G girl. Do you even read the papers?
Read “The Looming Tower” for Allah’s sake. Read anything about this movement and you will come to the inescapable conclusion that it is beyond dangerous. Read about what happened in Britain TODAY–bombs with NAILS in them, Sue!
That’s not dangerous in your world but in my world that is an attempt to both kill and maim.
Pervasive? Maybe not, but growing like hellfire.
Oh, and how about 9/11? Jihadis killing 3,000 innocent people. Or will you side with Ward Churchill on this one, too.
All best, Michael!
Reckless:
[The myth that jihadism is pervasive and dangerous.]
Holy Moley, G girl. Do you even read the papers?
Read “The Looming Tower” for Allah’s sake. Read anything about this movement and you will come to the inescapable conclusion that it is beyond dangerous. Read about what happened in Britain TODAY–bombs with NAILS in them, Sue!
That’s not dangerous in your world but in my world that is an attempt to both kill and maim.
Pervasive? Maybe not, but growing like hellfire.
Oh, and how about 9/11? Jihadis killing 3,000 innocent people. Or will you side with Ward Churchill on this one, too.
All best, Michael!
[Or will you side with Ward Churchill on this one, too.]
Low blow Conniff, but I guess I deserve it after my comment to Mitch (sorry Mitch).
OK I’ll give you dangerous. Jihadi attacks are dangerous on the micro-level…that is…if you happen to be standing nearby, or in the WTC. But there are far more imminent and threatening problems in the world than jihadism. We are just collectively focusing on jihadism because of 9/11 and the perpetual fear the government pumps in to the media and groups like ALERT pump in to the public with “experts” like Hamid.
Here’s my objection to the direction we’re going with this;
By inciting fear of moderate American Muslims and suspicion of American mosques, the next time we’re attacked by Muslims, there will be a series of hate crimes against Muslims, particularly women as they are easily identified by their hejab. The US government will ban the hejab and perhaps try to infiltrate mosques. The next step is rounding up, imprisoning and deporting Muslims. And somewhere in there will be the American support for an attack on Iran.
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, hatred leads to suffering – Yoda
[Or will you side with Ward Churchill on this one, too.]
Low blow Conniff, but I guess I deserve it after my comment to Mitch (sorry Mitch).
OK I’ll give you dangerous. Jihadi attacks are dangerous on the micro-level…that is…if you happen to be standing nearby, or in the WTC. But there are far more imminent and threatening problems in the world than jihadism. We are just collectively focusing on jihadism because of 9/11 and the perpetual fear the government pumps in to the media and groups like ALERT pump in to the public with “experts” like Hamid.
Here’s my objection to the direction we’re going with this;
By inciting fear of moderate American Muslims and suspicion of American mosques, the next time we’re attacked by Muslims, there will be a series of hate crimes against Muslims, particularly women as they are easily identified by their hejab. The US government will ban the hejab and perhaps try to infiltrate mosques. The next step is rounding up, imprisoning and deporting Muslims. And somewhere in there will be the American support for an attack on Iran.
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, hatred leads to suffering – Yoda
Greetings all,
Just a word or two before returning to the netherlands once again.
Methinks I smell an Evolution!
As the Tao would probably say…”You are all right, and…you are all wrong”.
In other words, don’t be fooled by the weight of all this KNOWLEDGE. Use it to free yourselves of conventioinal thought, but don’t allow the little voice within to dictate your actions by its fears.
I advise to see beyond the forest (and a mighty and massive forest it is) to see solutions. And yes, there are many solutions being devised by many a wise and knowlegable person.
Now we need leadership that is unencumbered by the old ways of thinking and doing, thereby allowing these new, progressive ideas to be implimented.
Mitch and Con-Dude, yes the Jihadist are real and they are scary, but…don’t fall back on your fears for your actions. Respect them for what they are and deal with them accordingly, but don’t forget that these were our boys in the past and perhaps, just perhaps, they still might be our boys. As in, see the writings of Seymour Hersh.
Now, what do you mean by OUR? Good question Star! I guess my answer would be OUR current elected officials and of course OUR current system that brought those elected officials to office.
This, ONCE AGAIN, is where I offer a solution.
Acknowleging what many in this country are already saying, and many more will be saying by the time we have endured another Presidential electrol cycle…”This mo-fo (my Eastern girl tells me its ma-fo but on my streets it was mo)system is BROKE”!!! Literally and figurativly. And I don’t mean maybe…
But where is your solution Star?
Well lets go back to those infamous Founding Fathers and their Revolution. At that time, instead of sitting around BITCHIN about those mo-fo’s taxing our tea without proper representation (wasn’t that what it was about?), those guys took some damn action. They got together (around a kegger? mmnnn..), debated solutions and chose worthy (don’t ya think) representatives to WRITE DOWN a new SYSTEM of governence for a mass of people (some 70-80% I guess) who didn’t give a rats patootie about going through the trouble, and the danger to change, or shall we say…EVOLVE!
My point! Its that time again my friends. And this time we (I at least) welcome women (not to mention Blacks Hispanics and Asians-no stinkin Redskins though, I jest of course, but not if I were to allow the pervasive attitude, and fears, of my Dakota upbringing to prevail) and even children to the party. Yes, even children.
The point being that we need varied perspectives to choose from. But, like now, with our personal responsibility to see through the trees to the forest and beyond, we must look and listen and make the choices for our future that reflect our highest aspirations, like those forefathers of ours from some 230 years hence.
Bottom line…its time to use the tools they provided us.
Thats my raw meat, season as you like but please don’t cook the life out of it. Season, eat… and enjoy! Star Eagle
Greetings all,
Just a word or two before returning to the netherlands once again.
Methinks I smell an Evolution!
As the Tao would probably say…”You are all right, and…you are all wrong”.
In other words, don’t be fooled by the weight of all this KNOWLEDGE. Use it to free yourselves of conventioinal thought, but don’t allow the little voice within to dictate your actions by its fears.
I advise to see beyond the forest (and a mighty and massive forest it is) to see solutions. And yes, there are many solutions being devised by many a wise and knowlegable person.
Now we need leadership that is unencumbered by the old ways of thinking and doing, thereby allowing these new, progressive ideas to be implimented.
Mitch and Con-Dude, yes the Jihadist are real and they are scary, but…don’t fall back on your fears for your actions. Respect them for what they are and deal with them accordingly, but don’t forget that these were our boys in the past and perhaps, just perhaps, they still might be our boys. As in, see the writings of Seymour Hersh.
Now, what do you mean by OUR? Good question Star! I guess my answer would be OUR current elected officials and of course OUR current system that brought those elected officials to office.
This, ONCE AGAIN, is where I offer a solution.
Acknowleging what many in this country are already saying, and many more will be saying by the time we have endured another Presidential electrol cycle…”This mo-fo (my Eastern girl tells me its ma-fo but on my streets it was mo)system is BROKE”!!! Literally and figurativly. And I don’t mean maybe…
But where is your solution Star?
Well lets go back to those infamous Founding Fathers and their Revolution. At that time, instead of sitting around BITCHIN about those mo-fo’s taxing our tea without proper representation (wasn’t that what it was about?), those guys took some damn action. They got together (around a kegger? mmnnn..), debated solutions and chose worthy (don’t ya think) representatives to WRITE DOWN a new SYSTEM of governence for a mass of people (some 70-80% I guess) who didn’t give a rats patootie about going through the trouble, and the danger to change, or shall we say…EVOLVE!
My point! Its that time again my friends. And this time we (I at least) welcome women (not to mention Blacks Hispanics and Asians-no stinkin Redskins though, I jest of course, but not if I were to allow the pervasive attitude, and fears, of my Dakota upbringing to prevail) and even children to the party. Yes, even children.
The point being that we need varied perspectives to choose from. But, like now, with our personal responsibility to see through the trees to the forest and beyond, we must look and listen and make the choices for our future that reflect our highest aspirations, like those forefathers of ours from some 230 years hence.
Bottom line…its time to use the tools they provided us.
Thats my raw meat, season as you like but please don’t cook the life out of it. Season, eat… and enjoy! Star Eagle
[(sorry Mitch)]
No worries, G…
Cheers,
[(sorry Mitch)]
No worries, G…
Cheers,
[By inciting fear of moderate American Muslims and suspicion of American mosques, the next time we’re attacked by Muslims, there will be a series of hate crimes against Muslims, particularly women as they are easily identified by their hejab...]
I think most of have expressed the opinion that America will be hit again by Jihadists. We certainly know now London narrowly escaped a very serious attack the other night.
Here’s a question for you:
Is it possible to combat a Jihadist enemy on U.S. soil without compromising the Freedom of Religion, and without repeating the mistakes of Manzanar and True Lake?
I only pose this question because I think the Jihadists have already thought this through…
Cheers,
[By inciting fear of moderate American Muslims and suspicion of American mosques, the next time we’re attacked by Muslims, there will be a series of hate crimes against Muslims, particularly women as they are easily identified by their hejab...]
I think most of have expressed the opinion that America will be hit again by Jihadists. We certainly know now London narrowly escaped a very serious attack the other night.
Here’s a question for you:
Is it possible to combat a Jihadist enemy on U.S. soil without compromising the Freedom of Religion, and without repeating the mistakes of Manzanar and True Lake?
I only pose this question because I think the Jihadists have already thought this through…
Cheers,
Star, you’re a true Constitutionalist. I’m with you, we need to revive and revamp our system. But like we discussed in the Circle of Intellect, this country’s not ready for revolution, too comfortable and too SCARED!
Oh Conniff, I forgot to mention in my list of possibilities, and this might interest you; the passing of laws against speaking out about the plight of the Palestinians, by labeling it hate speech (against Jews of course). If that happens you might need to change the slogan of your show.
If we focus on terrorism as “an Islamic problem” as people like Hamid and my dear Jewish friends advocate, then we will be traveling a dangerous path, a path that was taken by Germany less than a century ago. Remember how that turned out?
Your focus determines your experience – Quai Gon
Star, you’re a true Constitutionalist. I’m with you, we need to revive and revamp our system. But like we discussed in the Circle of Intellect, this country’s not ready for revolution, too comfortable and too SCARED!
Oh Conniff, I forgot to mention in my list of possibilities, and this might interest you; the passing of laws against speaking out about the plight of the Palestinians, by labeling it hate speech (against Jews of course). If that happens you might need to change the slogan of your show.
If we focus on terrorism as “an Islamic problem” as people like Hamid and my dear Jewish friends advocate, then we will be traveling a dangerous path, a path that was taken by Germany less than a century ago. Remember how that turned out?
Your focus determines your experience – Quai Gon
Mitch looks like you and I are reading and posting at the same time again, do you realize how often that happens? It’s like we’re in synch.
INteresting question. I can see the danger of attempting to fight jihadists and the jihadist mentality on US soil, but I have a harder time coming up with a solution. It reminds me of the movie; The Minority Report, where they predicted who would commit a crime and then pre-emptively captured or killed the future perpetrator.
How do we know which mosques, which Imam’s preach jihad? How do we know which Muslims condone or promote or plan to participate in jihad? Without violating our constitution?
How?
Mitch looks like you and I are reading and posting at the same time again, do you realize how often that happens? It’s like we’re in synch.
INteresting question. I can see the danger of attempting to fight jihadists and the jihadist mentality on US soil, but I have a harder time coming up with a solution. It reminds me of the movie; The Minority Report, where they predicted who would commit a crime and then pre-emptively captured or killed the future perpetrator.
How do we know which mosques, which Imam’s preach jihad? How do we know which Muslims condone or promote or plan to participate in jihad? Without violating our constitution?
How?
Mitch,
I left you a reply to your ?’s back on “Oldman takes on Con-Man”. Hope it helps you see where I am coming from.
G,
I’m not talking revolution, I’m talking Evolution, and it is happenning right before our very eyes. If you don’t have faith, chances are your sinkin’, not swimmin’.
Same with the Constitutioin, ya just gotta put your faith in it or it ain’t worth the paper its printed on.
Thats a little Billy Bob wisdom for ya all.
One more time, I Gotta Go…Star Eagle
Mitch,
I left you a reply to your ?’s back on “Oldman takes on Con-Man”. Hope it helps you see where I am coming from.
G,
I’m not talking revolution, I’m talking Evolution, and it is happenning right before our very eyes. If you don’t have faith, chances are your sinkin’, not swimmin’.
Same with the Constitutioin, ya just gotta put your faith in it or it ain’t worth the paper its printed on.
Thats a little Billy Bob wisdom for ya all.
One more time, I Gotta Go…Star Eagle
[Mitch looks like you and I are reading and posting at the same time again, do you realize how often that happens? It's like we're in synch.]
I have noticed this.
I’m not sure what to make of it, but several possibilities come to mind, not the least of which are these:
a) I’m an activist, too…
b) you’re a redneck like me…
c) we seek honest discourse about what we see going on around us…
I think we can all dismiss a)
Cheers,
[Mitch looks like you and I are reading and posting at the same time again, do you realize how often that happens? It's like we're in synch.]
I have noticed this.
I’m not sure what to make of it, but several possibilities come to mind, not the least of which are these:
a) I’m an activist, too…
b) you’re a redneck like me…
c) we seek honest discourse about what we see going on around us…
I think we can all dismiss a)
Cheers,
yeah I think it’s b)…you’ve seen my short hair, my neck gets pretty red when I’m not wearing my Stetson.
yeah I think it’s b)…you’ve seen my short hair, my neck gets pretty red when I’m not wearing my Stetson.
No doubt you’d look fetching in a Stetson…
But as you often do, it’s time for me to refocus any reveries this image might precipitate.
Is it possible to combat a Jihadist enemy on U.S. soil without compromising the Freedom of Religion, and without repeating the mistakes of Manzanar and True Lake?
To be fair, you did offer a response. You said you have a “harder time coming up with a solution,” and then referenced the movie “The Minority Report,” a movie that questions the existence of free will.
If free will is the application of rational thought, I agree. There is no easy answer to this question.
Care to wade in?
Cheers,
No doubt you’d look fetching in a Stetson…
But as you often do, it’s time for me to refocus any reveries this image might precipitate.
Is it possible to combat a Jihadist enemy on U.S. soil without compromising the Freedom of Religion, and without repeating the mistakes of Manzanar and True Lake?
To be fair, you did offer a response. You said you have a “harder time coming up with a solution,” and then referenced the movie “The Minority Report,” a movie that questions the existence of free will.
If free will is the application of rational thought, I agree. There is no easy answer to this question.
Care to wade in?
Cheers,
Heretofore, “Jihadist extremists” (I actually heard this term used on NBC this morning, so Michaels preferred term may be getting legs) have been young, low-to-middle class men of Arabic descent.
Two of the suspects detained in the Glascow car bombing are medical doctors.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1273245,00.html
In what ways does this dovetail with Dr. Hamid’s message?
Cheers,
Heretofore, “Jihadist extremists” (I actually heard this term used on NBC this morning, so Michaels preferred term may be getting legs) have been young, low-to-middle class men of Arabic descent.
Two of the suspects detained in the Glascow car bombing are medical doctors.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1273245,00.html
In what ways does this dovetail with Dr. Hamid’s message?
Cheers,
[If free will is the application of rational thought…]
But often it is not, it is the application of irrational thought, for instance Jerry Falwell preaching against the evils of homosexuality, or proclaiming 9/11 was God’s retribution for sin in America. The US constitution gives everyone a voice, even if we don’t like what we hear.
I prefer to err on the side of human and civil rights. We can’t spy on Americans to be sure they’re not spreading anti-Americanism, because that can be applied to my message as well as an Imam’s. We can’t pass laws against free speech, because the potential for abuse is greater, in my estimation than the possibility of preventing a terrorist attack.
I don’t believe in pre-emptive action. In our country we arrest people AFTER they commit a crime. In Communist countries and most Arab dictatorships, they arrest people for thinking or saying something the government doesn’t want them to. Are we going to become just like them? I hope not!
[Two of the suspects detained in the Glascow car bombing are medical doctors. In what ways does this dovetail with Dr. Hamid's message?]
That’s just my point, it doesn’t. His message explains HOW jihadis are recruited, but not WHY they choose to target countries like the US and Britain. Were these doctors trying to punish the infadels for their lack of adherence to Sharia Law? Were they simply trying to get to heaven so they could have sex? Or were they exhibiting a growing trend to terrorize countries whose policies oppress and terrorize Muslim civilians?
Will the media even publish their motives or will they be swept under the rug like bin Laden’s were after 9/11, in favor of the old; “they hate us for our freedom” defense?
[If free will is the application of rational thought…]
But often it is not, it is the application of irrational thought, for instance Jerry Falwell preaching against the evils of homosexuality, or proclaiming 9/11 was God’s retribution for sin in America. The US constitution gives everyone a voice, even if we don’t like what we hear.
I prefer to err on the side of human and civil rights. We can’t spy on Americans to be sure they’re not spreading anti-Americanism, because that can be applied to my message as well as an Imam’s. We can’t pass laws against free speech, because the potential for abuse is greater, in my estimation than the possibility of preventing a terrorist attack.
I don’t believe in pre-emptive action. In our country we arrest people AFTER they commit a crime. In Communist countries and most Arab dictatorships, they arrest people for thinking or saying something the government doesn’t want them to. Are we going to become just like them? I hope not!
[Two of the suspects detained in the Glascow car bombing are medical doctors. In what ways does this dovetail with Dr. Hamid's message?]
That’s just my point, it doesn’t. His message explains HOW jihadis are recruited, but not WHY they choose to target countries like the US and Britain. Were these doctors trying to punish the infadels for their lack of adherence to Sharia Law? Were they simply trying to get to heaven so they could have sex? Or were they exhibiting a growing trend to terrorize countries whose policies oppress and terrorize Muslim civilians?
Will the media even publish their motives or will they be swept under the rug like bin Laden’s were after 9/11, in favor of the old; “they hate us for our freedom” defense?
[We can’t spy on Americans... We can’t pass laws against free speech... I don’t believe in pre-emptive action...]
I take it, then, that your answer to the question, “Is it possible to combat a Jihadist enemy on U.S. soil without compromising the Freedom of Religion, and without repeating the mistakes of Manzanar and True Lake?” is No.
Surely these are not the only actions at our disposal. Otherwise, we may as well submit to the will of bin Laden and al Zawahiri now.
[That’s just my point, [Dr. Hamid's message] doesn’t [dovetail with the professional identities of the Glasgow car bombing suspects]]
Bilal Talal Abdul Samad Abdulla, an Iraqi doctor working at the Royal Alexandra Hospital just miles from the Glasgow International Airport, is among those being questioned for the car bombing.
Why does a person who must have at one time read, if not embraced, the Hippocratic Oath–which holds paramount the value of doing no deliberate harm–participate in a car bombing?
Dr. Hamid answered this question. Your struggle to deny this is hard to watch…
Cheers,
[We can’t spy on Americans... We can’t pass laws against free speech... I don’t believe in pre-emptive action...]
I take it, then, that your answer to the question, “Is it possible to combat a Jihadist enemy on U.S. soil without compromising the Freedom of Religion, and without repeating the mistakes of Manzanar and True Lake?” is No.
Surely these are not the only actions at our disposal. Otherwise, we may as well submit to the will of bin Laden and al Zawahiri now.
[That’s just my point, [Dr. Hamid's message] doesn’t [dovetail with the professional identities of the Glasgow car bombing suspects]]
Bilal Talal Abdul Samad Abdulla, an Iraqi doctor working at the Royal Alexandra Hospital just miles from the Glasgow International Airport, is among those being questioned for the car bombing.
Why does a person who must have at one time read, if not embraced, the Hippocratic Oath–which holds paramount the value of doing no deliberate harm–participate in a car bombing?
Dr. Hamid answered this question. Your struggle to deny this is hard to watch…
Cheers,
“g” you comment
“His message explains HOW jihadis are recruited, but not WHY they choose to target countries like the US and Britain.”
They don’t just target the US and Britain. Attached is a link to a web site that links a majority of the terrorist attacks that occur worldwide, most you don’t hear about. You will note many in Arab, Asian, African, and other countries as well as the US and European countries.
To assert that jihadis target just the US and Britain for our polices is pushing you own misguided agenda not based on any semblance of fact.
http://www.einnews.com/terrorism/
“g” you comment
“His message explains HOW jihadis are recruited, but not WHY they choose to target countries like the US and Britain.”
They don’t just target the US and Britain. Attached is a link to a web site that links a majority of the terrorist attacks that occur worldwide, most you don’t hear about. You will note many in Arab, Asian, African, and other countries as well as the US and European countries.
To assert that jihadis target just the US and Britain for our polices is pushing you own misguided agenda not based on any semblance of fact.
http://www.einnews.com/terrorism/
[Dr. Hamid answered this question. Your struggle to deny this is hard to watch... ]
Please illustrate how Dr. Hamid’s experience explains Bilal Talal Abdul Samad Abdulla’s possible involvement.
My struggle is getting people to see the possibility that Bilal Talal Abdul Samad Abdulla, an IRAQI, might have a grudge against the nations that destroyed his country and continue to kill his people.
My struggle is against the kind of propaganda that Dr. Hamid and Jewish groups like ALERT are promoting that absolves the US and Israel of any culpability and puts the entire blame on the Islamic religion.
I know I’m fighting a losing battle, but I’ll continue to speak and write against US/Israel policies as long as I still have the freedom to, which at this rate, might not be very long.
[Dr. Hamid answered this question. Your struggle to deny this is hard to watch... ]
Please illustrate how Dr. Hamid’s experience explains Bilal Talal Abdul Samad Abdulla’s possible involvement.
My struggle is getting people to see the possibility that Bilal Talal Abdul Samad Abdulla, an IRAQI, might have a grudge against the nations that destroyed his country and continue to kill his people.
My struggle is against the kind of propaganda that Dr. Hamid and Jewish groups like ALERT are promoting that absolves the US and Israel of any culpability and puts the entire blame on the Islamic religion.
I know I’m fighting a losing battle, but I’ll continue to speak and write against US/Israel policies as long as I still have the freedom to, which at this rate, might not be very long.
Welcome back alpha6!
No of course, I never claimed the US and Britain are the only targets. But you might note that even in other countries, the targets tend to be related to the US, ie embassies, hotels, Arab governments supported by the US. But even when there is no relation to the US, the targets are still politically motivated for the most part, showing opposition toward governements or groups that don’t conform to the jihadists ideas.
I don’t deny that there is a relgious jihadi aspect to terrorism. I just think that it muddles the complex and multi-faceted causes of terrorism, which include anger over antiArab/Muslim policies.
As with the Tao, it isn’t all one thing or the other, it’s both mingled together. I’m willing to discuss the religious aspect of jihadism, why can’t we also discuss the political one?
Welcome back alpha6!
No of course, I never claimed the US and Britain are the only targets. But you might note that even in other countries, the targets tend to be related to the US, ie embassies, hotels, Arab governments supported by the US. But even when there is no relation to the US, the targets are still politically motivated for the most part, showing opposition toward governements or groups that don’t conform to the jihadists ideas.
I don’t deny that there is a relgious jihadi aspect to terrorism. I just think that it muddles the complex and multi-faceted causes of terrorism, which include anger over antiArab/Muslim policies.
As with the Tao, it isn’t all one thing or the other, it’s both mingled together. I’m willing to discuss the religious aspect of jihadism, why can’t we also discuss the political one?
The National Counterterrorism Center defines terrorist attacks as “premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets.”
and states;
“No one definition of terrorism has gained universal acceptance. For the purposes of this report, however, we have chosen the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the United States Code, Section 2656f(d). That statute contains the following definition:
The term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant* targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience. “
US Dept. of State – Country reports on Terrorism http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2006/82727.htm
“Because terrorism is fundamentally political, the political significance of major events is vital in determining meaningful responses…Radicalization of immigrant populations, youth and alienated minorities in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa continued. It became increasingly clear, however, that such radicalization does not occur by accident, or because such populations are innately prone to extremism. Rather, there was increasing evidence of terrorists and extremists manipulating the grievances of alienated youth or immigrant populations and then cynically exploiting those grievances to subvert legitimate authority and create unrest.”
Interestingly, nowhere in the State Depts. Report on terrorism does the word jihad appear, and no mention of religious motivation is made.
The National Counterterrorism Center defines terrorist attacks as “premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets.”
and states;
“No one definition of terrorism has gained universal acceptance. For the purposes of this report, however, we have chosen the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the United States Code, Section 2656f(d). That statute contains the following definition:
The term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant* targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience. “
US Dept. of State – Country reports on Terrorism http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2006/82727.htm
“Because terrorism is fundamentally political, the political significance of major events is vital in determining meaningful responses…Radicalization of immigrant populations, youth and alienated minorities in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa continued. It became increasingly clear, however, that such radicalization does not occur by accident, or because such populations are innately prone to extremism. Rather, there was increasing evidence of terrorists and extremists manipulating the grievances of alienated youth or immigrant populations and then cynically exploiting those grievances to subvert legitimate authority and create unrest.”
Interestingly, nowhere in the State Depts. Report on terrorism does the word jihad appear, and no mention of religious motivation is made.
Glad to be back…sorry I missed the fish fry, but judging from the attire, I would have been the only one wearing a tux. : )
I wouldn’t give the State Dept. much credence with regards to terrorism or any reliable intelligence or reporting. Other then ICE, they are probably the worst capable of government agencies that exist. (Not counting the UN which is numero uno of course)
Glad to be back…sorry I missed the fish fry, but judging from the attire, I would have been the only one wearing a tux. : )
I wouldn’t give the State Dept. much credence with regards to terrorism or any reliable intelligence or reporting. Other then ICE, they are probably the worst capable of government agencies that exist. (Not counting the UN which is numero uno of course)
[I wouldn't give the State Dept. much credence with regards to terrorism or any reliable intelligence or reporting.]
Why of course you wouldn’t alpha. But tell me, whose authority on the causes of terrorism do you trust if not theUS governemnt agencies responsible for combating it, the 9/11 comission report, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, or Osama bin Laden, ALL of whom say that US policy is the reason we’re being attacked?
[I wouldn't give the State Dept. much credence with regards to terrorism or any reliable intelligence or reporting.]
Why of course you wouldn’t alpha. But tell me, whose authority on the causes of terrorism do you trust if not theUS governemnt agencies responsible for combating it, the 9/11 comission report, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, or Osama bin Laden, ALL of whom say that US policy is the reason we’re being attacked?
You misquote me. I stated that I did not trust anything the State Department has to say with regards to terrorism. Their mission is completely different from intelligence gathering organizations.
By the way, the 9/11 commission report is not an intelligence report. It is a political finger pointing document at best, and is probably produced on such poor quality paper that you couldn’t start a fire with it.
You misquote me. I stated that I did not trust anything the State Department has to say with regards to terrorism. Their mission is completely different from intelligence gathering organizations.
By the way, the 9/11 commission report is not an intelligence report. It is a political finger pointing document at best, and is probably produced on such poor quality paper that you couldn’t start a fire with it.
Don’t evade the question. Whose expert testimony do you trust to give us an accurate depiction of the roots of terrorism?
And that’s a question for Mitch and Conman too.
List your sources please.
Don’t evade the question. Whose expert testimony do you trust to give us an accurate depiction of the roots of terrorism?
And that’s a question for Mitch and Conman too.
List your sources please.
When asked whether you would consider reading “The Looming Tower,” you wrote: “I have not read the Looming Tower and will not.”
I think I can accurately anticipate what your opinion will be about anything I consider “expert testimony.” After all, what’s this thread about?
Cheers,
When asked whether you would consider reading “The Looming Tower,” you wrote: “I have not read the Looming Tower and will not.”
I think I can accurately anticipate what your opinion will be about anything I consider “expert testimony.” After all, what’s this thread about?
Cheers,
OY! The Looming Tower again? Wharf Rat that’s your cue.
OK so let’s take Lawrence Wright, the author of the Looming Tower, also thrill novels, and screenwriter for the action movie The Siege. Lawrence Wright; member of the infamous “non-partisan” Council on Foreign Relations, who said in an interview on that website; http://www.cfr.org/publication/11705/inside_the_terrorist_plot_rush_transcript_federal_news_service.html
“Zawahiri’s goal was always to take over Egypt, and that’s been his real driving ambition…Bin Laden really had a goal of driving the Americans out of Saudi Arabia…So there was a commonality of purpose because the al Qaeda theorists told bin Laden, you know, you can’t destroy the royal family. You know, the population’s not going to support that. If you attack the Americans, it will show the weakness, the dependency of the royal family on the Americans, and the people will turn against them. And so in a way, it was a strategy at that time that’s evolved over time, and of course Zawahiri also had—he had been driven out of Egypt and so he was looking for a new way to focus his organization. So the turn towards America was more strategic than really ideological.”
And also regarding fighting terrorism said;
“You know, as I said, if we begin to create intelligence agencies that actually have agents that are intelligent enough and skilled enough to cope with it, that would be one thing. And I think addressing in a committed and realistic way the problems of Israel and Palestine would be a big thing.”
OK I’ll concede, Conniff’s terrorism expert is right, terrorism against America is more strategic than ideological, and addressing the problems of Israel and Palestine would be a big thing.
OY! The Looming Tower again? Wharf Rat that’s your cue.
OK so let’s take Lawrence Wright, the author of the Looming Tower, also thrill novels, and screenwriter for the action movie The Siege. Lawrence Wright; member of the infamous “non-partisan” Council on Foreign Relations, who said in an interview on that website; http://www.cfr.org/publication/11705/inside_the_terrorist_plot_rush_transcript_federal_news_service.html
“Zawahiri’s goal was always to take over Egypt, and that’s been his real driving ambition…Bin Laden really had a goal of driving the Americans out of Saudi Arabia…So there was a commonality of purpose because the al Qaeda theorists told bin Laden, you know, you can’t destroy the royal family. You know, the population’s not going to support that. If you attack the Americans, it will show the weakness, the dependency of the royal family on the Americans, and the people will turn against them. And so in a way, it was a strategy at that time that’s evolved over time, and of course Zawahiri also had—he had been driven out of Egypt and so he was looking for a new way to focus his organization. So the turn towards America was more strategic than really ideological.”
And also regarding fighting terrorism said;
“You know, as I said, if we begin to create intelligence agencies that actually have agents that are intelligent enough and skilled enough to cope with it, that would be one thing. And I think addressing in a committed and realistic way the problems of Israel and Palestine would be a big thing.”
OK I’ll concede, Conniff’s terrorism expert is right, terrorism against America is more strategic than ideological, and addressing the problems of Israel and Palestine would be a big thing.
[Wharf Rat that’s your cue.]
For the record… as memorable as your reply to Michael’s request that you read TLT was, so was Wharf Rat’s later reply, in which he pointed out the fallacies in the premise of the request to read TLT… against the notions that no person can have an informed opinion unless they read TLT, and that TLT is the only valid perspective on this whole Jihadist quandary, WR contrasted the fact that Michael used his congames pulpit to voice an opinion about breast enhancement surgery. Even now, WR’s comment still makes me grin.
[...terrorism against America is more strategic than ideological, and addressing the problems of Israel and Palestine would be a big thing.]
This is no concession. You will always be a defender of the Palestinian peoples… and of all peoples.
And rightly so.
If what you read in your link interested you at all… the first chapter of Wright’s book is titled “The Martyr,” if I recall correctly. It is a lengthy chapter about Sayyid Qutb, a figure that could not be more relevant to this discussion. I have referenced Qutb (pronounced “Kutoob” or “Kuteb”) before…
I mention Qutb only because you asked earlier for alpha, Michael and me to list sources we consider “expert testimony.”
Read Qutb’s “Milestones.” Bin Laden and al Zawahiri have.
While I’m citing what I regard as sources of “expert testimony,” after close to thirty years I have begun re-reading a work widely attributed to Allah…
http://www.oneummah.net/quran/quran.html
Cheers,
[Wharf Rat that’s your cue.]
For the record… as memorable as your reply to Michael’s request that you read TLT was, so was Wharf Rat’s later reply, in which he pointed out the fallacies in the premise of the request to read TLT… against the notions that no person can have an informed opinion unless they read TLT, and that TLT is the only valid perspective on this whole Jihadist quandary, WR contrasted the fact that Michael used his congames pulpit to voice an opinion about breast enhancement surgery. Even now, WR’s comment still makes me grin.
[...terrorism against America is more strategic than ideological, and addressing the problems of Israel and Palestine would be a big thing.]
This is no concession. You will always be a defender of the Palestinian peoples… and of all peoples.
And rightly so.
If what you read in your link interested you at all… the first chapter of Wright’s book is titled “The Martyr,” if I recall correctly. It is a lengthy chapter about Sayyid Qutb, a figure that could not be more relevant to this discussion. I have referenced Qutb (pronounced “Kutoob” or “Kuteb”) before…
I mention Qutb only because you asked earlier for alpha, Michael and me to list sources we consider “expert testimony.”
Read Qutb’s “Milestones.” Bin Laden and al Zawahiri have.
While I’m citing what I regard as sources of “expert testimony,” after close to thirty years I have begun re-reading a work widely attributed to Allah…
http://www.oneummah.net/quran/quran.html
Cheers,
The more I think and hear and read about this debate, the more importance I attach to using the word “Jihadist” rather than “terrorist.”
If you crticize jihadism rather than Islam, you are knocking the more radical strain of Islam and not all of Islam.
You are condemning a creed that says the infidel must die and that civilians have to meet death as a routine matter as the victims of a religious war. In the jihad, civilians are really military targets and nothing more.
The Palestinians want to destroy Israel, and Iran wants to wipe it off the face of the earth. The reverse is not true.
As Mitch pointed out (above), MSNBC is now using the phrase “jihadist,” and so was CNN last night.
Precision is important. “Terrorist” is meaningless other than to describe any group that uses terrorism as a tactic. “War,” in turn is meaningless other than to describe a struggle that includes states, armed forces, and the conquest of physical territories.
The “War on Terror” is not even a bumper sticker. The threat of jihad, jihadis, and jihadism could not be more important.
Best, Con Man
The more I think and hear and read about this debate, the more importance I attach to using the word “Jihadist” rather than “terrorist.”
If you crticize jihadism rather than Islam, you are knocking the more radical strain of Islam and not all of Islam.
You are condemning a creed that says the infidel must die and that civilians have to meet death as a routine matter as the victims of a religious war. In the jihad, civilians are really military targets and nothing more.
The Palestinians want to destroy Israel, and Iran wants to wipe it off the face of the earth. The reverse is not true.
As Mitch pointed out (above), MSNBC is now using the phrase “jihadist,” and so was CNN last night.
Precision is important. “Terrorist” is meaningless other than to describe any group that uses terrorism as a tactic. “War,” in turn is meaningless other than to describe a struggle that includes states, armed forces, and the conquest of physical territories.
The “War on Terror” is not even a bumper sticker. The threat of jihad, jihadis, and jihadism could not be more important.
Best, Con Man
Michael, you’re right. Jihadism is an ideology, terrorism is an action. But Jihadism is no threat without terrorism. Without 9/11 we wouldn’t even be talking about Jihadism. Fighting a war on Jihadism is no different than fighting a war on terror. It’s unwinnable.
When you label it Jihadism, you attach the religion of Islam to terrorism. Then it becomes a religious war, a crusade on our part, which will lead to WWIII.
This is exactly what bin Laden and Zawahiri want. As they well know, this would be our undoing. Sheep going willingly to the slaughter.
Mitch you are absolutely right, from everything I’ve read, this jihad mentality was born of Qutb’s visit to the US and subsequent book; Milestones. Bin Laden, Zawahiri and other Arabs with grand ambitions have exploited this message in order to recruit Muslims to jihad, brainwashing, as Tawfik Hamid described it, young men into the jihad mentality. Terrorism is the method by which those men carry out their leaders political ambitions, while believing they are carrying out God’s will.
Can we defeat Jihadism? Can we prevent terrorism? Only if we focus on both aspects of the problem; the leader’s cause and the martyr’s cause. One is political, the other religious.
We can’t do anything about the religious aspect. That is for Islamic reformers to tackle. But we can change policies that cause hatred among Muslims for the US and Israel, making it harder for Jihadi leaders to justify killing innocent civilians. Remember, Hamid said hatred was the first ingredient to turning a Muslim into a Jihadi.
Putting all experts aside, just going on pure human nature; haven’t you ever experienced hatred or anger at someone for hurting you or committing some other offense against you? It makes you want to hurt them back. What is so hard to understand about the reason Muslim Extremists target the U.S.? How easy is it for Jihadi leaders to point out America’s faults and transgressions?
Let’s make it harder, that’s all I’m suggesting. What could it hurt?
Now I have to address this statement:
[The Palestinians want to destroy Israel, and Iran wants to wipe it off the face of the earth.]
Regarding the Palestinians, I think, I hope you mean the leaders of Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, and not the people. Precision is important!
Most Palestinians want to live side by side with the Israelis. They want a two state solution, not the destruction of Israel. Besides that, it has nothing to do with a hatred between Muslims and Jews, or the Jihad movement. Palestinian suicide bombings are a result of extreme despair, desperation, and revenge. It is purely political.
Iran…Michael, Michael, Michael. I’m disappointed in you. You have completely bought into the propaganda. Not only is this statement untrue, it’s patently ridiculous! Iran has existed peacefully with its neighbors for centuries. It would gain nothing by attacking Israel or the US. Why are we so quick to believe this stupid premise that Iran is a threat? The propaganda is effective I guess.
Yeah its president is a little kooky, but he never said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map, as everyone now confidently claims. And even if he did, so what? It’s not like that’s even a possibility. If Iran EVER made ANY sort of aggressive move in that direction, Israel and the US would be on their asses so fast they wouldn’t even know what hit em.
Which brings me back to Jihadism. What the hell are we so afraid of? An ideology that wants to kill or convert every infadel and install a caliphate? Kind of an unrealistic goal don’t you think? Aside from continued terror attacks, what are the chances you think that they will succeed in destroying our way of life? What are the chances we’re going to lose the “war on terror” and have to submit to Sharia Law in America?
Like I said, jihadism is not the biggest threat we face on the planet. Our focus on it is only inflating the fear and preventing us from making good decisions. And the spreading of lies and propaganda by our government and media is only going to lead to trouble.
Don’t fall for it.
Michael, you’re right. Jihadism is an ideology, terrorism is an action. But Jihadism is no threat without terrorism. Without 9/11 we wouldn’t even be talking about Jihadism. Fighting a war on Jihadism is no different than fighting a war on terror. It’s unwinnable.
When you label it Jihadism, you attach the religion of Islam to terrorism. Then it becomes a religious war, a crusade on our part, which will lead to WWIII.
This is exactly what bin Laden and Zawahiri want. As they well know, this would be our undoing. Sheep going willingly to the slaughter.
Mitch you are absolutely right, from everything I’ve read, this jihad mentality was born of Qutb’s visit to the US and subsequent book; Milestones. Bin Laden, Zawahiri and other Arabs with grand ambitions have exploited this message in order to recruit Muslims to jihad, brainwashing, as Tawfik Hamid described it, young men into the jihad mentality. Terrorism is the method by which those men carry out their leaders political ambitions, while believing they are carrying out God’s will.
Can we defeat Jihadism? Can we prevent terrorism? Only if we focus on both aspects of the problem; the leader’s cause and the martyr’s cause. One is political, the other religious.
We can’t do anything about the religious aspect. That is for Islamic reformers to tackle. But we can change policies that cause hatred among Muslims for the US and Israel, making it harder for Jihadi leaders to justify killing innocent civilians. Remember, Hamid said hatred was the first ingredient to turning a Muslim into a Jihadi.
Putting all experts aside, just going on pure human nature; haven’t you ever experienced hatred or anger at someone for hurting you or committing some other offense against you? It makes you want to hurt them back. What is so hard to understand about the reason Muslim Extremists target the U.S.? How easy is it for Jihadi leaders to point out America’s faults and transgressions?
Let’s make it harder, that’s all I’m suggesting. What could it hurt?
Now I have to address this statement:
[The Palestinians want to destroy Israel, and Iran wants to wipe it off the face of the earth.]
Regarding the Palestinians, I think, I hope you mean the leaders of Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, and not the people. Precision is important!
Most Palestinians want to live side by side with the Israelis. They want a two state solution, not the destruction of Israel. Besides that, it has nothing to do with a hatred between Muslims and Jews, or the Jihad movement. Palestinian suicide bombings are a result of extreme despair, desperation, and revenge. It is purely political.
Iran…Michael, Michael, Michael. I’m disappointed in you. You have completely bought into the propaganda. Not only is this statement untrue, it’s patently ridiculous! Iran has existed peacefully with its neighbors for centuries. It would gain nothing by attacking Israel or the US. Why are we so quick to believe this stupid premise that Iran is a threat? The propaganda is effective I guess.
Yeah its president is a little kooky, but he never said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map, as everyone now confidently claims. And even if he did, so what? It’s not like that’s even a possibility. If Iran EVER made ANY sort of aggressive move in that direction, Israel and the US would be on their asses so fast they wouldn’t even know what hit em.
Which brings me back to Jihadism. What the hell are we so afraid of? An ideology that wants to kill or convert every infadel and install a caliphate? Kind of an unrealistic goal don’t you think? Aside from continued terror attacks, what are the chances you think that they will succeed in destroying our way of life? What are the chances we’re going to lose the “war on terror” and have to submit to Sharia Law in America?
Like I said, jihadism is not the biggest threat we face on the planet. Our focus on it is only inflating the fear and preventing us from making good decisions. And the spreading of lies and propaganda by our government and media is only going to lead to trouble.
Don’t fall for it.
[What the hell are we so afraid of?]
Asked like a true Carbondale resident. Not much chance of having your Saturday morning brunch at the Smithy interrupted by a Jihadist car bomb, is there?…
Cheers,
[What the hell are we so afraid of?]
Asked like a true Carbondale resident. Not much chance of having your Saturday morning brunch at the Smithy interrupted by a Jihadist car bomb, is there?…
Cheers,
Reckless,
Please cite your sources for your comment “Most Palestinians want to live side by side with the Israelis. They want a two state solution, not the destruction of Israel.”
I have found nothing to indicate this, rather just the opposite.
As you know, Hamas just ousted the Fatah goverment. In an article from the New York Times the leader of Hamas stated this “Hamas leader said the group had no intention of recognizing Israel’s right to exist or changing its charter, which calls for Israel’s destruction.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/28/international/middleeast/28hamas.html?ex=1296104400&en=1cbe5608649b9f37&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
As you know, the charter still calls for the destruction of Israel, and I don’t see the “majority” of Palestinians calling for a change to that charter.
Reckless,
Please cite your sources for your comment “Most Palestinians want to live side by side with the Israelis. They want a two state solution, not the destruction of Israel.”
I have found nothing to indicate this, rather just the opposite.
As you know, Hamas just ousted the Fatah goverment. In an article from the New York Times the leader of Hamas stated this “Hamas leader said the group had no intention of recognizing Israel’s right to exist or changing its charter, which calls for Israel’s destruction.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/28/international/middleeast/28hamas.html?ex=1296104400&en=1cbe5608649b9f37&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
As you know, the charter still calls for the destruction of Israel, and I don’t see the “majority” of Palestinians calling for a change to that charter.
Alpha,
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/173.php?nid=&id=&pnt=173&lb=brme
Just one of many. I’m sure you can Google this fact yourself…if you really wanted to.
Mitch,
Aside from terrorist attacks, that I have agreed are dangerous for those nearby, which we are not, are you really afraid of Jihadis taking over the world. Do you feel an imminent risk to your wife and children? Aren’t there many more risks that are sensible to address, such as the environment, alternative fuel, water issues, cancer, drunk driving, etc.?
You seem like a reasonable man. I would be interested in hearing what it is you believe will happen if we don’t stop Jihadism. What’s your worst case scenario?
Alpha,
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/173.php?nid=&id=&pnt=173&lb=brme
Just one of many. I’m sure you can Google this fact yourself…if you really wanted to.
Mitch,
Aside from terrorist attacks, that I have agreed are dangerous for those nearby, which we are not, are you really afraid of Jihadis taking over the world. Do you feel an imminent risk to your wife and children? Aren’t there many more risks that are sensible to address, such as the environment, alternative fuel, water issues, cancer, drunk driving, etc.?
You seem like a reasonable man. I would be interested in hearing what it is you believe will happen if we don’t stop Jihadism. What’s your worst case scenario?
[what it is you believe will happen if we don't stop Jihadism. What's your worst case scenario?]
I believe it was Wharf Rat who eloquently pointed out in another thread that the targets of 9/11 were largely symbolic.
I will not post targets that I think would have been/could be more crippling to the U.S.
Is the risk as imminent as it was in 2001? I think the intent remains and is likely stronger, even if the means are weak.
If the attacks in London and Glasgow are any indication, the ability of Jihadist to marshal effective, large-scale attacks have diminished.
Does that mean the threat is neutralized?
Even a blind pig finds an acorn sometimes.
Cheers,
[what it is you believe will happen if we don't stop Jihadism. What's your worst case scenario?]
I believe it was Wharf Rat who eloquently pointed out in another thread that the targets of 9/11 were largely symbolic.
I will not post targets that I think would have been/could be more crippling to the U.S.
Is the risk as imminent as it was in 2001? I think the intent remains and is likely stronger, even if the means are weak.
If the attacks in London and Glasgow are any indication, the ability of Jihadist to marshal effective, large-scale attacks have diminished.
Does that mean the threat is neutralized?
Even a blind pig finds an acorn sometimes.
Cheers,
Thanks for the link “G”, however, I wonder how accurate the polls are given the recent change in government there. But until the ruling party changes the charter, I doubt any meaningful dialog will take place between the two countries.
Thanks for the link “G”, however, I wonder how accurate the polls are given the recent change in government there. But until the ruling party changes the charter, I doubt any meaningful dialog will take place between the two countries.
Hamas won the majority in the Palestinian government in the January, 2006 election.
Surely the existence of Israel was a central issue in every voter’s mind.
Cheers,
Hamas won the majority in the Palestinian government in the January, 2006 election.
Surely the existence of Israel was a central issue in every voter’s mind.
Cheers,
[Surely the existence of Israel was a central issue in every voter's mind.]
Mitch, absolutely correct, but when you gotta eat you gotta eat. A hungry stomach isn’t very ideological or theological even if spiritual. Hamas will break. These aren’t well fed Qaida suicide bombers.
[Surely the existence of Israel was a central issue in every voter's mind.]
Mitch, absolutely correct, but when you gotta eat you gotta eat. A hungry stomach isn’t very ideological or theological even if spiritual. Hamas will break. These aren’t well fed Qaida suicide bombers.
[A hungry stomach isn't very ideological or theological even if spiritual.]
I suppose you’re right. In the spirit of Marie Antoinette, what’s guacamole without avocados?
I remember reading that Hamas was establishing a certain level of stability. When you fill a void with something that doesn’t resemble desperation, damn near anything is possible. Consider what the Taliban did in post-Hafizullah Amin Afghanistan. That could account for Hamas’ popularity in the 2006 election…
Cheers,
[A hungry stomach isn't very ideological or theological even if spiritual.]
I suppose you’re right. In the spirit of Marie Antoinette, what’s guacamole without avocados?
I remember reading that Hamas was establishing a certain level of stability. When you fill a void with something that doesn’t resemble desperation, damn near anything is possible. Consider what the Taliban did in post-Hafizullah Amin Afghanistan. That could account for Hamas’ popularity in the 2006 election…
Cheers,
Alpha, in regards to #38. The State Dept actually supplied some of the best and most accurate intellegence on Iraq (as well as the Pentagon) pre-war. It wasn’t that the intellegence was incorrect, it was that these decisions were made despite the intellegence reports.
As far as the 9/11 commision report, Hemp paper would have been a good start, but really, it was mostly cover-up and whitewash (and on bad paper to boot).
The Palestinians, basically you got your Fatah (Republicans), and you got your Hamas (Democrats).
Untill you find a true leader (a uniter ?) I am afraid you are going to be stuck in the old divide and conquer modality that seems to be the norm here and there.
NO EVOLUTION, ONLY REVOLUTION!! Or.. in other words, A NEVER ENDING WAR!
REALITY BITES!
Or…maybe NOT!!
We need to keep our eye on our fish fry back here at home because there is a pretty good chance the Mid-East is going to end up being a big old BBQ (can anyone say–New-que-lar) with us (U.S.) supplying the fire (and by the way, pass me some of that there (oily)guacamole…please).
We got a lot of work to do, but you know what? It starts right here in this house. Best…Cheers, Star Eagle
Alpha, in regards to #38. The State Dept actually supplied some of the best and most accurate intellegence on Iraq (as well as the Pentagon) pre-war. It wasn’t that the intellegence was incorrect, it was that these decisions were made despite the intellegence reports.
As far as the 9/11 commision report, Hemp paper would have been a good start, but really, it was mostly cover-up and whitewash (and on bad paper to boot).
The Palestinians, basically you got your Fatah (Republicans), and you got your Hamas (Democrats).
Untill you find a true leader (a uniter ?) I am afraid you are going to be stuck in the old divide and conquer modality that seems to be the norm here and there.
NO EVOLUTION, ONLY REVOLUTION!! Or.. in other words, A NEVER ENDING WAR!
REALITY BITES!
Or…maybe NOT!!
We need to keep our eye on our fish fry back here at home because there is a pretty good chance the Mid-East is going to end up being a big old BBQ (can anyone say–New-que-lar) with us (U.S.) supplying the fire (and by the way, pass me some of that there (oily)guacamole…please).
We got a lot of work to do, but you know what? It starts right here in this house. Best…Cheers, Star Eagle