Comments on: Our two-Tiered System of Laws http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/ Think Global : Post Local Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:14:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.1 by: aspenoakes http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34782 Sun, 07 Oct 2007 16:08:38 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34782 [No Amount of conservation can overcome a country headed for a U.S. Census Bureau's projection of a possible 1.2 billion immigration-driven jam-packed souls by century's end. And while you are quite glib that you are seemingly OK with all that, it won't be you who that nightmare falls on; it will be you children and grandchildren. It is therefore immoral for you to make that decision for them.] Mike Cair Mike, why not place this comment on the post, so everyone can see it? Then we can all respond to it, and have an open dialog about this subject. Sometimes one must accept the things one cannot change. Those 1.2 billion humans are coming to this planet, period- end of story. Actually, if that is the estimate for the US, I would imagine that the global number would be several billion. The issue is how do we deal with it? Do we turn our selves into some exclusionary society, accepting only the best candidates for inclusion? Do we continue to allow criminals to take advantage of those who want a better life? Do we continue to either have a two-tiered legal system, or fill an already overcrowded prison system? Do we continue letting people die trying to get to our country? Is that moral? Or is it better to do what we can to help these people? Immigration is not like a faucet, it can’t just be turned off. They WILL come, one way or another, they WILL come. And companies WILL hire them, people WILL give them housing, they WILL be supported. This WILL not change. Just like people WILL consume booze, regardless of the laws. It is time that we adapt our laws to deal with this. Let’s find a way to get all those illegal aliens documented. If we can make them legal, we can tax them, we can search their background for criminal activity. We can teach them our culture, how to drive, etc. This won’t prevent the illegal immigration from happening. It will greatly diminish it. Then we can truly enforce laws about hiring, housing, or otherwise supporting illegal aliens. Going back to my example of the laws of alcohol, we control when a person can legally purchase it. It was 18, but now it is 21. This law is enforced. It is difficult to buy booze if you are young and don’t have proper ID, not impossible. It does not seem to be a national issue though. It is something that is left up to local communities to deal with. How do you suggest we deal with it? Thoughts anyone, Mike? P.S. It won’t be my children or grandchildren that pay the price. I have done a small part to stop overpopulation, by making a choice not to bring another life into existence. That decision is unlikely to change. Don’t ever tell me, or anyone, what is moral, immoral, right, or wrong. It puts you in a bad place of thinking you and your personal beliefs are better than everyone elses. It is also the quickest way to destroy thoughtful dialogue and turn it into hate mongering dribble. By the way, do you support Bush’s war plan? Just curious? [No Amount of conservation can overcome a country headed for a U.S. Census
Bureau's projection of a possible 1.2 billion immigration-driven
jam-packed souls by century's end. And while you are quite glib that you
are seemingly OK with all that, it won't be you who that nightmare falls on;
it will be you children and grandchildren. It is therefore immoral for you
to make that decision for them.] Mike Cair

Mike, why not place this comment on the post, so everyone can see it?
Then we can all respond to it, and have an open dialog about this subject.

Sometimes one must accept the things one cannot change.
Those 1.2 billion humans are coming to this planet, period- end of story.
Actually, if that is the estimate for the US, I would imagine that the global number would be several billion.
The issue is how do we deal with it? Do we turn our selves into some exclusionary society, accepting only the best candidates for inclusion? Do we continue to allow criminals to take advantage of those who want a better life? Do we continue to either have a two-tiered legal system, or fill an already overcrowded prison system? Do we continue letting people die trying to get to our country? Is that moral?
Or is it better to do what we can to help these people?
Immigration is not like a faucet, it can’t just be turned off. They WILL come, one way or another, they WILL come.
And companies WILL hire them, people WILL give them housing, they WILL be supported. This WILL not change. Just like people WILL consume booze, regardless of the laws.
It is time that we adapt our laws to deal with this. Let’s find a way to get all those illegal aliens documented. If we can make them legal, we can tax them, we can search their background for criminal activity. We can teach them our culture, how to drive, etc. This won’t prevent the illegal immigration from happening. It will greatly diminish it. Then we can truly enforce laws about hiring, housing, or otherwise supporting illegal aliens.
Going back to my example of the laws of alcohol, we control when a person can legally purchase it. It was 18, but now it is 21. This law is enforced. It is difficult to buy booze if you are young and don’t have proper ID, not impossible. It does not seem to be a national issue though. It is something that is left up to local communities to deal with.

How do you suggest we deal with it? Thoughts anyone, Mike?

P.S. It won’t be my children or grandchildren that pay the price. I have done a small part to stop overpopulation, by making a choice not to bring another life into existence. That decision is unlikely to change.
Don’t ever tell me, or anyone, what is moral, immoral, right, or wrong. It puts you in a bad place of thinking you and your personal beliefs are better than everyone elses. It is also the quickest way to destroy thoughtful dialogue and turn it into hate mongering dribble.
By the way, do you support Bush’s war plan? Just curious?

]]> by: aspenoakes http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34740 Sat, 06 Oct 2007 17:15:36 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34740 I would like to make some observations on this subject. I think that the problem here is not actual immigration, but rather the way in which we handle it. We need to enforce and adapt the laws that we have. Why is it so difficult to get legal status? Many employers rely on immigrant workers. Mark Gould, of Gould Construction, has given this issue great merit. Should we not strive to make it easier to get the proper paperwork to be here legally? If we were to make them legal, would they not become more involved in our society, rather than a fringe group that strains our institutions? They would then be responsible for paying taxes and they could get driver’s licenses. I don’t think that arguing about weather or not they should be here is helping. After all, most of us have immigrants in our family tree. I don’t have a real number, but I would guess that less than one percent of U.S. citizens are pure Native American. I would like to take a look at history. In the 1920’s, the U.S. Congress ratified the Constitution to make it illegal to produce, distribute, or use alcohol. This did little to get people to stop drinking. In fact, it created a huge crime wave, probably gave birth to organized crime, or at least substantially strengthened it. This new law also caused many deaths. After several years, Congress saw the error of their ways and repealed the amendment. The judicial system has come up with other laws that provide us with a guide in the use of this substance. My point here is that we cannot prevent immigration, no more than we prevented the consumption of alcohol. It has happened for the entire history of our country and it will continue to happen. The question is how do we deal with it? Do we make unreasonable laws that do nothing but promote illegal activities, or do we rewrite our laws to get these immigrants documented and involved in our society? Do we provide immigrants with classes to teach them our language, how to drive, what is acceptable behavior in our culture and what is not? Or, do we continue to treat them as second class humans, not worthy of living in our “free” society? I opt for doing what we can to integrate the immigrants. The description of what would happen to an illegal immigrant in Mexico should serve as an example of why so many Mexicans want to leave that Country, wouldn’t you? As for Switzerland, Isn’t that similar to what we do? And don’t they just come right back? I know that there are those that say it will cost a great deal to process and educate them, but do they not already financially drain our resources? They use our health care, our schools, and our roads and engage our law enforcement. Yes, even if they are legal, they will be using our resources. They will also be required to contribute through taxes. Let’s spend the money where it will have a positive impact. I know that Frosty my have some issues with this. He has shown that the increase of immigrants will have a great impact on our environment. He is right. It will have a tremendous effect on our environment. It means that we should begin to look at how we waste our resources. How many golf courses do we really need, and do they have to water them every damn day? Just one example of how we waste what resources we have. I would like to make some observations on this subject. I think that the problem here is not actual immigration, but rather the way in which we handle it. We need to enforce and adapt the laws that we have. Why is it so difficult to get legal status? Many employers rely on immigrant workers. Mark Gould, of Gould Construction, has given this issue great merit. Should we not strive to make it easier to get the proper paperwork to be here legally? If we were to make them legal, would they not become more involved in our society, rather than a fringe group that strains our institutions? They would then be responsible for paying taxes and they could get driver’s licenses. I don’t think that arguing about weather or not they should be here is helping. After all, most of us have immigrants in our family tree. I don’t have a real number, but I would guess that less than one percent of U.S. citizens are pure Native American.
I would like to take a look at history.
In the 1920’s, the U.S. Congress ratified the Constitution to make it illegal to produce, distribute, or use alcohol. This did little to get people to stop drinking. In fact, it created a huge crime wave, probably gave birth to organized crime, or at least substantially strengthened it. This new law also caused many deaths. After several years, Congress saw the error of their ways and repealed the amendment. The judicial system has come up with other laws that provide us with a guide in the use of this substance.
My point here is that we cannot prevent immigration, no more than we prevented the consumption of alcohol. It has happened for the entire history of our country and it will continue to happen. The question is how do we deal with it? Do we make unreasonable laws that do nothing but promote illegal activities, or do we rewrite our laws to get these immigrants documented and involved in our society? Do we provide immigrants with classes to teach them our language, how to drive, what is acceptable behavior in our culture and what is not? Or, do we continue to treat them as second class humans, not worthy of living in our “free” society? I opt for doing what we can to integrate the immigrants.
The description of what would happen to an illegal immigrant in Mexico should serve as an example of why so many Mexicans want to leave that Country, wouldn’t you? As for Switzerland, Isn’t that similar to what we do? And don’t they just come right back?
I know that there are those that say it will cost a great deal to process and educate them, but do they not already financially drain our resources? They use our health care, our schools, and our roads and engage our law enforcement. Yes, even if they are legal, they will be using our resources. They will also be required to contribute through taxes. Let’s spend the money where it will have a positive impact.
I know that Frosty my have some issues with this. He has shown that the increase of immigrants will have a great impact on our environment. He is right. It will have a tremendous effect on our environment. It means that we should begin to look at how we waste our resources. How many golf courses do we really need, and do they have to water them every damn day? Just one example of how we waste what resources we have.

]]> by: alpha6 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34708 Sat, 06 Oct 2007 04:46:29 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34708 That's a good question Flower. While Western Europe is enacting new and stricter immigration laws, our congress is still fiddle fricking around even with a majority of the citizens of this country want better enforcement and control of the borders. (Switzerland just enacted a policy that anyone in their country illegally is put across the nearest border, no trial, no nothing, its on a bus and to the nearest border..see ya, wouldn't want to be ya. Gotta love that Swiss efficiency) Unfortunately, it is going to take a major terrorist attack from people who crossed the border illegally for anything to start to be done. Then of course it will be too late and Congress, you can bet will be to busy pointing fingers then to actually address the problem. That's a good question Flower. While Western Europe is enacting new and stricter immigration laws, our congress is still fiddle fricking around even with a majority of the citizens of this country want better enforcement and control of the borders. (Switzerland just enacted a policy that anyone in their country illegally is put across the nearest border, no trial, no nothing, its on a bus and to the nearest border..see ya, wouldn't want to be ya. Gotta love that Swiss efficiency)

Unfortunately, it is going to take a major terrorist attack from people who crossed the border illegally for anything to start to be done. Then of course it will be too late and Congress, you can bet will be to busy pointing fingers then to actually address the problem.

]]> by: flower77 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34692 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 21:25:12 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34692 So, why if it is 'subversion' to be in Mexico illegally and if you are caught illegally in the US nothing is done? Can't the same premise be drawn on an illegal in the US - either terrorism or subversion? Look at the 9/11 high jackers . So, why if it is 'subversion' to be in Mexico illegally and if you are caught illegally in the US nothing is done?
Can't the same premise be drawn on an illegal in the US - either terrorism or subversion? Look at the 9/11 high jackers .

]]> by: alpha6 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34690 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 18:46:43 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34690 If you are caught in Mexico illegally, they can take two courses of action. One is to deport you back to your resident country or they can charge you with subversion. The way they figure it is anyone entering into the country illegally is trying to overthrow the government by not abiding by their entry laws. By charging you with subversion, you are tried by a special military tribunal and given no defense. All they need to prove is that you are in the country illegally, not anything else to get a guilty verdict on subversion. Being found guilty of subversion gets you 30 years to life...in a Mexican prison. If you are caught in Mexico illegally, they can take two courses of action. One is to deport you back to your resident country or they can charge you with subversion. The way they figure it is anyone entering into the country illegally is trying to overthrow the government by not abiding by their entry laws. By charging you with subversion, you are tried by a special military tribunal and given no defense. All they need to prove is that you are in the country illegally, not anything else to get a guilty verdict on subversion. Being found guilty of subversion gets you 30 years to life...in a Mexican prison.

]]> by: flower77 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34689 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 18:28:24 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34689 I agree with Michael - Mike, great stuff. But I have a question what with all the talk of immigration policy in the US , why does no one talk about the immigration policies of other countries? If a US citizen immigrated- legally or illegally to Mexico , would this person be entitled to free health care , education and welfare for their families? I don't think so. Also , if this same person commited crimes would they be given the same treatment the US gives our illegal or legal immigrants? No. Just something to think about , in our bizarro world of immigation. I agree with Michael - Mike, great stuff. But I have a question what with all the talk of immigration policy in the US , why does no one talk about the immigration policies of other countries?
If a US citizen immigrated- legally or illegally to Mexico , would this person be entitled to free health care , education and welfare for their families? I don't think so.
Also , if this same person commited crimes would they be given the same treatment the US gives our illegal or legal immigrants? No.
Just something to think about , in our bizarro world of immigation.

]]> by: Tammy http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34678 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:07:09 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-34678 <strong>Tammy...</strong> ... Tammy...

...

]]> by: Michael Conniff http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-33542 Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:29:57 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/09/10/our-two-tiered-system-of-laws/#comment-33542 Great stuff, Mike, as always. One of your best, I think. Thanks, Michael! Great stuff, Mike, as always. One of your best, I think.

Thanks, Michael!

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