Comments on: What About Me? http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/ Think Global : Post Local Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:43:55 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.1 by: mwalker http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38850 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 02:59:40 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38850 Wharf Rat- You're right on. I completely agree with what you said especially "it was not your writing, and you need to either retract the piece or credit authorship to the Williams songwriter. " Jon- I get what you did, but regardless of the intent or process this is not your work. You need to retract it or credit the correct writer. I do not need a degree in English to know that you cannot claim this as your work. I'll be happy to move on after you stand up and do the right thing. Please fix this... Peace~ Wharf Rat- You're right on.

I completely agree with what you said especially "it was not your writing, and you need to either retract the piece or credit authorship to the Williams songwriter. "

Jon- I get what you did, but regardless of the intent or process this is not your work. You need to retract it or credit the correct writer. I do not need a degree in English to know that you cannot claim this as your work. I'll be happy to move on after you stand up and do the right thing. Please fix this...

Peace~

]]> by: Wharf Rat http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38845 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:29:28 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38845 Jon, With all due respect, your poem is virtually identical to the song. The structure, the words--barely a discernable difference. B. Jon: Then Dad would come in, and kiss his little man DW: Then daddy came in to kiss his little man B. Jon: with whiskey on his breath, and a bottle in his hand. DW: With gin on his breath and a Bible in his hand B. Jon: He'd talk about Honor and the things I should know DW: He talked about honor and things I should know B. Jon: and he staggered a little as he went out the door. DW: Then he’d stagger a little as he went out the door B. Jon: I guess we are all gonna be what we are gonna be. DW: I guess we’re all gonna be what we’re gonna be B.Jon: What do you do with good ol' boys like me? DW: So what do you do with good ole boys like me You can't take ownership of that writing, no matter how inadvertent it was, nor how much you might relate to those passages. Look, man, I know this is a hurtful thing to discuss, but you received a lot of praise for that passage and but for the fact that revcoop recognized it as a Don Williams song, you would be incorrectly holding it out to the world as your original writing. You stated in your explanation "My post was a good piece. It was real, it was me." That may be the case, but it was not your writing, and you need to either retract the piece or credit authorship to the Williams songwriter. I understand your feelings are hurt, but you need to do the right thing out of respect for the original author. Jon,

With all due respect, your poem is virtually identical to the song. The structure, the words--barely a discernable difference.

B. Jon: Then Dad would come in, and kiss his little man
DW: Then daddy came in to kiss his little man

B. Jon: with whiskey on his breath, and a bottle in his hand.
DW: With gin on his breath and a Bible in his hand

B. Jon: He'd talk about Honor and the things I should know
DW: He talked about honor and things I should know

B. Jon: and he staggered a little as he went out the door.
DW: Then he’d stagger a little as he went out the door

B. Jon: I guess we are all gonna be what we are gonna be.
DW: I guess we’re all gonna be what we’re gonna be

B.Jon: What do you do with good ol' boys like me?
DW: So what do you do with good ole boys like me

You can't take ownership of that writing, no matter how inadvertent it was, nor how much you might relate to those passages. Look, man, I know this is a hurtful thing to discuss, but you received a lot of praise for that passage and but for the fact that revcoop recognized it as a Don Williams song, you would be incorrectly holding it out to the world as your original writing.

You stated in your explanation "My post was a good piece. It was real, it was me." That may be the case, but it was not your writing, and you need to either retract the piece or credit authorship to the Williams songwriter. I understand your feelings are hurt, but you need to do the right thing out of respect for the original author.

]]> by: B Jon Traylor http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38844 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:53:37 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38844 Hello. My name is Bobby Jon Traylor. I'm a product of West Texas and a local business man in this valley. I write here quite a bit, but I also am not very good at checking in to view "comments." I don't write for comments, I just write. Last Thursday, I checked my email, and there were several email notiications regarding a recent post titled "What About Me?' I read the comments, via email, and honestly, I was about knocked out of my chair. If I had been on a horse, perhaps I would have been knocked outta my saddle. These comments bothered me more than you could possibly imagine. I read the words and accepted them as part of an old Don Williams song. Many of the words in that piece were from Don Williams. Many of those words were from my heart, my intellelect. But the theme was indeed Williams'. At about 2 a.m. later that night, I was laying in bed, trying to figure this all out. I was thinking about my Dad, his experiences, my brief life with him,etc. And I started to hear all those Don Williams songs, the Marty Robbins songs, the George Strait songs, the tunes from Bob Wills and theTexas Playboys, etc. I realized that that particular song made alot of sense to me. Those lyrics stayed with me for the next 20 or 25 years. I came home from my yearly gettaway with my buds, and those thoughts were very much in my head. I didn't even know that what drove those thoughts were some lyrics from an old Don Williams song from my childhood. Its funny that my father was a big Don Wiilliams fan, because as I look back on his life, as I knew him, his life, his character was very much indeed like many of William's songs. I may not be much, nor may I ever be. But I'm confident in knowing that I'm about as stand up a person as you will ever know. I'm honest, and that fact alone is what will perhaps limit me the rest of my life. I have two college degrees, and I want to go back and get a doctorate, One of my degrees is in English, with an emphasis in American Lit and creative writing. I know a little something about plagerism. I will have never, ever, knowingly plagerized any person's work, anytime, anywhere. I have too much stupid pride to even consider doing so. My post was a good piece. It was real,. it was me. I'd like to stop here and say thank you to Don Williams for helping me be me, for helping me accept that there is much more out there I'm trying to understand and accept. I'll be 40 in a month, and I'm in a pretty good place. -- J Hello. My name is Bobby Jon Traylor. I'm a product of West Texas and a local business man in this valley. I write here quite a bit, but I also am not very good at checking in to view "comments." I don't write for comments, I just write.
Last Thursday, I checked my email, and there were several email notiications regarding a recent post titled
"What About Me?'
I read the comments, via email, and honestly, I was about knocked out of my chair. If I had been on a horse, perhaps I would have been knocked outta my saddle.
These comments bothered me more than you could possibly imagine.
I read the words and accepted them as part of an old Don Williams song. Many of the words in that piece were from Don Williams. Many of those words were from my heart, my intellelect. But the theme was indeed Williams'.
At about 2 a.m. later that night, I was laying in bed, trying to figure this all out. I was thinking about my
Dad, his experiences, my brief life with him,etc. And I started to hear all those Don Williams songs, the Marty Robbins songs, the George Strait songs, the tunes from Bob Wills and theTexas Playboys, etc.
I realized that that particular song made alot of sense to me. Those lyrics stayed with me for the next 20 or 25 years.
I came home from my yearly gettaway with my buds, and those thoughts were very much in my head. I didn't even know that what drove those thoughts were some lyrics from an old Don Williams song from my childhood.
Its funny that my father was a big Don Wiilliams fan, because as I look back on his life, as I knew him, his life, his character was very much indeed like many of William's songs.
I may not be much, nor may I ever be. But I'm confident in knowing that I'm about as stand up a person as you will ever know. I'm honest, and that fact alone is what will perhaps limit me the rest of my life.
I have two college degrees, and I want to go back and get a doctorate, One of my degrees is in English, with an emphasis in American Lit and creative writing. I know a little something about plagerism. I will have never, ever, knowingly plagerized any person's work, anytime, anywhere. I have too much stupid pride to even consider doing so.
My post was a good piece. It was real,. it was me. I'd like to stop here and say thank you to Don Williams for helping me be me, for helping me accept that there is much more out there I'm trying to understand and accept. I'll be
40 in a month, and I'm in a pretty good place.
-- J

]]> by: Wharf Rat http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38791 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:24:59 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38791 [Having heard his answer, I am willing to give him the benefit of a doubt. I do not think what Jon did in composing this post warrants yoking him with the "plagiarist" label.] It sounds to me like everyone is in agreement on that. Congrats on the promotion, BTW. [Having heard his answer, I am willing to give him the benefit of a doubt. I do not think what Jon did in composing this post warrants yoking him with the "plagiarist" label.]

It sounds to me like everyone is in agreement on that. Congrats on the promotion, BTW.

]]> by: Mitch.Mulhall http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38790 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:58:25 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38790 What I'm saying is, yes, empirically this post is plagiarized. That said, I heard Jon answer the question, "Did you plagiarize this post?" Having heard his answer, I am willing to give him the benefit of a doubt. I do not think what Jon did in composing this post warrants yoking him with the "plagiarist" label. Perhaps Jon will settle this by a) following any or all of the great suggestions in this thread, and b) answering the question above for the benefit of the larger Aspen Post community. Cheers, What I'm saying is, yes, empirically this post is plagiarized.

That said, I heard Jon answer the question, "Did you plagiarize this post?" Having heard his answer, I am willing to give him the benefit of a doubt. I do not think what Jon did in composing this post warrants yoking him with the "plagiarist" label.

Perhaps Jon will settle this by a) following any or all of the great suggestions in this thread, and b) answering the question above for the benefit of the larger Aspen Post community.

Cheers,

]]> by: Wharf Rat http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38789 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:07:12 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38789 Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, Mitch. I first thought you were saying that it is not plagiarism because it was unintentional, which you now seem to agree is incorrect. That takes care of that problem. The second issue, which is where I am perhaps misunderstanding you, relates to what (if anything) should be done. I am interpreting your remarks to mean that the issue should be dropped, that it is an unfair charge, and that because it is unintentional it need not be corrected. If that is indeed what you are saying, then I disagree. Like I said, I think the post either needs to be deleted or modified with the appropriate attribution. Since you do raise a good point that this discussion implicates Jon's credibility, I will make this my last post on the topic. Perhaps I-Con will handle it in appropriate editorial fashion. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, Mitch. I first thought you were saying that it is not plagiarism because it was unintentional, which you now seem to agree is incorrect. That takes care of that problem.

The second issue, which is where I am perhaps misunderstanding you, relates to what (if anything) should be done. I am interpreting your remarks to mean that the issue should be dropped, that it is an unfair charge, and that because it is unintentional it need not be corrected. If that is indeed what you are saying, then I disagree. Like I said, I think the post either needs to be deleted or modified with the appropriate attribution.

Since you do raise a good point that this discussion implicates Jon's credibility, I will make this my last post on the topic. Perhaps I-Con will handle it in appropriate editorial fashion.

]]> by: mwalker http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38788 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:40:53 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38788 Mitch- yes, plagiarism is a pretty hefty charge as you said, but why should bloggers be held to any different standard than anyone else? I'm sure that Jon will either delete or edit his post to cite the proper author, but I maintain that if it's not your thought don't take the credit. This site clearly allows people from different walks with different opinions to express themselves and their points. With this freedom to blog also comes the responsibility to be truthful when something you write is not your own. You can decide if you want if this "speaks to a person's credibility" all you want, but the point still remains that if it's not your work don't take ownership. Let's maintain the gift of freedom on the blog by acting responsibly. Jon has the opportunity to correct this so we can all move on...I'm willing to give him the chance. Peace~ Mitch- yes, plagiarism is a pretty hefty charge as you said, but why should bloggers be held to any different standard than anyone else? I'm sure that Jon will either delete or edit his post to cite the proper author, but I maintain that if it's not your thought don't take the credit. This site clearly allows people from different walks with different opinions to express themselves and their points. With this freedom to blog also comes the responsibility to be truthful when something you write is not your own. You can decide if you want if this "speaks to a person's credibility" all you want, but the point still remains that if it's not your work don't take ownership. Let's maintain the gift of freedom on the blog by acting responsibly. Jon has the opportunity to correct this so we can all move on...I'm willing to give him the chance.

Peace~

]]> by: Mitch.Mulhall http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38787 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:07:16 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38787 You are correct in saying that without attribution Jon's post constitutes plagiarism. That said, plagiarism is a pretty hefty charge to levy against a blogger. It speaks directly to a person's credibility. I personally am not willing to stamp Jon with that scarlet letter. It's just a hunch, but I suspect this thread is sufficient admonition. Object lesson: Cite early and cite often. Cheers, You are correct in saying that without attribution Jon's post constitutes plagiarism. That said, plagiarism is a pretty hefty charge to levy against a blogger. It speaks directly to a person's credibility. I personally am not willing to stamp Jon with that scarlet letter. It's just a hunch, but I suspect this thread is sufficient admonition.

Object lesson: Cite early and cite often.

Cheers,

]]> by: Wharf Rat http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38786 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:32:48 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38786 Mitch, I'm aware of the fact that Jon believes this came from his subconscious. My point is that it doesn't matter whether it occurred by design or by accident. plagiarism (n): the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work. There is no plagiarism exception for subconscious patterning. You may recall that Kaavya Viswanathan had her novel pulled and lost her book deal over a similar situation. Her explanation: KAAVYA VISWANATHAN, Author: I completely see the similarities. I'm not denying that those are there, but I can honestly say that any of those similarities were completely unconscious and unintentional, that while I was reading Megan McCafferty's books, I must have just internalized her words. I never, ever intended to deliberately take any of her words. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/jan-june06/viswanathan_05-02.html It doesn't matter that it was unconscious and unintentional--it's still plagiarism. The passage Jon attributed as his own work should either be deleted, or credit should be given to the writer of the Don Williams song. I hope Jon continues to write on this blog. I always look forward to reading his submissions and I'm not trying to make this a personal attack against him. However, out of respect to Mr. Williams and the other readers of this blog, the situation needs to be corrected. Mitch,

I'm aware of the fact that Jon believes this came from his subconscious. My point is that it doesn't matter whether it occurred by design or by accident.

plagiarism (n): the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

There is no plagiarism exception for subconscious patterning. You may recall that Kaavya Viswanathan had her novel pulled and lost her book deal over a similar situation. Her explanation:

KAAVYA VISWANATHAN, Author: I completely see the similarities. I'm not denying that those are there, but I can honestly say that any of those similarities were completely unconscious and unintentional, that while I was reading Megan McCafferty's books, I must have just internalized her words. I never, ever intended to deliberately take any of her words.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/jan-june06/viswanathan_05-02.html

It doesn't matter that it was unconscious and unintentional--it's still plagiarism. The passage Jon attributed as his own work should either be deleted, or credit should be given to the writer of the Don Williams song.

I hope Jon continues to write on this blog. I always look forward to reading his submissions and I'm not trying to make this a personal attack against him. However, out of respect to Mr. Williams and the other readers of this blog, the situation needs to be corrected.

]]> by: Mitch.Mulhall http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38785 Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:42:33 +0000 http://www.aspenpost.net/2007/10/02/what-about-me/#comment-38785 WR, mwalker, revcoop, I'd call this plagiarism if in fact that's what I thought it is. I talked to Jon about this the other night, and I'm pretty sure he borrowed that lyric liberally from a distant memory. I'm not going to stand in the way of anyone who wants to declare plagiarism, but I do recommend you talk to Jon about this before you do. Cheers, WR, mwalker, revcoop,

I'd call this plagiarism if in fact that's what I thought it is. I talked to Jon about this the other night, and I'm pretty sure he borrowed that lyric liberally from a distant memory. I'm not going to stand in the way of anyone who wants to declare plagiarism, but I do recommend you talk to Jon about this before you do.

Cheers,

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