Some of you may be old enough to remember a TV show from early 60s called “The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis.” It was a relatively early attempt at a sit-com and it proved to be a smash hit for a couple of years. Dobie had a friend Named Maynard G. Krebs (played by Bob Denver) who was a “hippie.” Actually, in those days they called them beatniks, but the point of all this is that Maynard’s favorite movie, always playing at the Bijou, was “The Monster that Devoured Cleveland.”
The question that I ask, rhetorically, is whether we have a “Monster that’s devouring Aspen?” Let’s take a look! First of all, I am going to fill you in on a little secret. There is no such thing as a “Monster Home.” Like beauty, the size and appearance of a home is relative to the needs and eyes of the beholder. The term Monster Home, like Palestinian, is made up by those with a particular political agenda.
In fact, if you ask most Aspenites what is the ideal size of a home, they will usually respond that “it’s just a bit bigger than the one they live in.” A waiter in a studio wishes he had a one bedroom. An architect in a one bedroom wishes she had a two bedroom. A lawyer with a family would love to have an extra bathroom. Parents from Chicago yearn for a media room for their children. Grandparents from Kansas want a home large enough to for their children and grandchildren. Finally, the truly fortunate in this town hope to have a home large enough to serve as a family compound. Aspen has become a retreat for families. Ironically, when the Burlingame affordable housing complex was designed, our own politicians suggested that we increase the size of the typical units because “larger homes are more livable for families.” This is pure genius at work! In fact, that’s why we pay these guys the big bucks.
Our politicians, who are tighter with F.A.R. (floor area ratio) than the rusted lug nuts on a 54 Chevy, are entirely correct when they say that 5750 square feet is large enough for a family. However, most of Aspen’s homes are not just for Ozzie and Harriet and their two kids David and Ricky. More often than not, Aspen home owners are trying to squeeze in Ozzie, Harriet, David, Ricky, Uncle Tanoose and Aunt Bee, Grandpa Jed Clampett, the Brady Bunch grandkids, two nannies and Sky King with his co-pilot, who ferry the family back and forth from Los Angeles. 5750 Doesn’t work for a family compound!
Why should we care about these extended families? In simple to understand terms, the children and grandchildren, who can no longer afford to come to Aspen on their own, represent Aspen’s “seed corn” for the next generation. If Aspen continues to evolve into a place where folks only come to retire, how are young people going to learn about our wonderful town? Moreover, along with affordable housing, these family compounds provide a vibrant venue for the continued infusion of young blood. We don’t want Aspen to become a geriatric village.
By now we have all heard that Monster Homes are wasting energy like an open fire-pit on the mall. Ooooops….bad example! Anyway, since Monster Homes are in conflict with the Canary Initiative, we should ban them, right? Not so fast! Many of the newer homes in town are being constructed with solar and geothermal energy, beefed-up insulation, and greener building principles. These are not your grandfather’s monster homes.
When I travel, I sometimes ask people from other states innocent sounding questions. “Would you like to live in a town with large, spacious homes?” The answer is almost always a resounding “you-betcha!” My follow-up question is “how about living in a town with Monster Homes? Their response is usually a wrinkling of the nose and a shaking of the head. Of course, it’s the same question both times but with a change in the all-important “spin.”
What does all this mean? I have no bleeping idea, except of course that I wish my house had one extra room for my treadmill. If it did, Maynard G. Krebs would say “that’s cool, daddio.”
If the homes are used full time or most of the year, OK.
If they’re empty most of they year you’re just making excuses.
“The term Monster Home, like Palestinian, is made up by those with a particular political agenda.”
Nice. I’ll bet you throw “Anti-Semite!” around whenever it suits you. Pathetic.
I don’t throw the term anti-semite around at all. I would be wasting my time. The people who a term like that would be needed for, like the ones who hate Blacks and Latinos or bash Gays, usually aren’t smart enough to read or spell.
Jerry is right, Palestinian is a made up term. Or rather it is mispronounced. The way Palestinians themselves pronounce it is Philistine. Yup those same pesky people that were living on the land the Israelis claim God gave the Jews thousands of years ago, are still around after all this time. Imagine that!
Jerry’s also right about the fact that those who use the term Palestinian have a political agenda. Namely that they dare to validate the indigenous people’s rightful claim to the land they have lived on and cultivated for thousands of years, countering the popular Zionist assertion that since there are no such people as Palestinians, the Israelis can move on to their land and claim it for themselves.
So I guess if we use Zionist logic, and say there is no such thing as Monster Homes, we have the right to move into them and claim them as our own property. Is that where you’re going with this absurd comparison Jerry?
Reckless G brings up an interesting argument. However, I believe the argument he promotes lacks some historical accuracy.
First of all, Reckless G is right about one thing. The Nomadic tribes that wandered for thousands of years across what is now Israel were both Jewish and Arab. Both groups can claim a historical tie to the land.
The way I understand history, the United Nations divided “Palestine” into a a Jewish State (Israel) and a Muslim State (Jordan.) The Jews who lived in Jordan moved to Israel. The Jews who were in the Israeli half told the Muslim Arabs that lived there that they were welcome to stay. However, their Arab brethren, in the dozens of countries surrounding Israel, suggested that they leave. “We will have a war, and drive the Jews into the sea.” “Then we will have both countries to ourselves.” Amazingly, despite their overwhelming advantage in numbers, the Arab countries lost the war. This created a large number of Arab refugees. During the entire time up to 1967, none of the Arab countries called for a “homeland” for the refugees. They already had one. It’s called Jordan. However, when the West Bank was lost during the ’67 war, there was suddenly an outcry for a home for the “Palestinians.”
None of the other Arab countries, despite their common language, religion and culture made any attempt to assimilate the refugees. In fact, the Arabs themselves used the refugees as political pawns for their own radical initiatives. In contrast, Israel has successfully absorbed refugees from Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Jordan, Russia, Germany, etc.
I assume that Reckless G is not suggesting that the Jews who were displaced from these dozens of countries will be welcomed back and given their own homelands in each of these places.
The ultimate irony here is that, if the refugees had selected a leader who really wanted peace, the Israelis have offered them most of the West Bank as their own State. The Israelis want peace in the region. They just don’t want to commit suicide. In fact, Yassir Arafat was offered 97 percent of everything he asked for during the peace negotiations, but still turned it down.
Sadly, the radical Arabs, who still don’t recognize Israel’s right to exist, cling to the hope that the Jews will someday be driven into the sea. 3/4 of the donut isn’t good enough for them. They want the whole thing. That’s why we have “Palestinians.”
As far as Monster Homes, I would be happy to move into one, but if there were only two available, and I were given one, I would feel a bit embarrassed about asking for half of the other one too.
Ahh, I see where you’re coming from. You’ve just regurgitated the entire sequence of events in the Middle East exactly as it’s been portrayed in the media, churches and synagogues of America. Yes, I grew up hearing this story and have had it repeated to me countless times by Christian and Jewish family members and acquaintances. It wasn’t until I started doing some reading on my own that I discovered that this story, though it may be the officially recognized one in America, is not the real story. The rest of the world is well aware of this and baffled by the ability of our government, the media, and the Israel lobby to keep the wool pulled over America’s eyes. It really is the most successful propaganda campaign ever. The brainwashing has been so effective that when the truth is actually told about the last 60 years of Israel/Palestine history, the teller is viciously attacked as a liar and anti-Semite (hence comment #2).
Well Jerry, since it’s obvious you are convinced that this is the authentic story, and since I’ve dispelled these same myths exhaustively in my previous posts, I won’t bother to correct you here. If you ever want to learn the truth, there are thousands of books, videos, and internet sites available to you.
If you ever do find out the real story, you’ll see the irony of the Monster Homes analogy in your last paragraph. The Jews were given a Monster Home; Israel, but that wasn’t enough, they now want the Monster Home next door also; Palestine. And they are rapidly obtaining it. Over 42% of the West Bank that was set aside for Palestinian homeland has already been stolen by Israel’s settlers with the aid of the IDF and US taxpayer money. If you want to know the truth, Israel is a threat to Palestine, not the other way around.
Reckless G and I might have to “agree to disagree” on the historical facts.” I appreciate his perspective, but the reality, if you care to look at a map, is that the Muslim State that was given to the Arabs is vastly larger than tiny Israel. It was the Muslims who got the Monster Home and the Jews who were given a small “affordable housing” unit in the desert.
Moreover, the radical Muslims are products of failed societies with corrupt leaders. They continue to waste time and energy trying to blow up their children and think of ways to push the Jews into the Sea, In contrast, the Israelis have worked overtime to make the desert bloom, to grow oranges the size of cantaloupes, to start new tech companies and to invent vaccines and cures for cancer that benefit us all.
I am sure Reckless G saw the news videos and reports when the Israeli government displaced thousands of their own citizens from their homes in Gaza, and voluntarily put these lands and homes back under Palestinian control. Do you think that these displaced Jews will sit around in squalor for the next 60 years bemoaning their fate as “refugees?”
There is an old Yiddish Proverb. “If you want your dreams to come true, don’t sleep!”
Finally, the most valuable take-away from this polite discussion between Reckless G and myself, is that two intelligent people can see things so differently. Sadly, the problems in the Middle East, and in the world as a whole, is that we continue to talk past each other instead of creating a better place for everyone.
Jerry, I appreciate your polite tone in discussing this complex topic. However, heaping more propaganda on the fire is no way to put it out. Let’s just take the phrase “push the Jews into the sea,” as a classic case. To anyone’s knowledge no Arab has ever publicly uttered this phrase, yet it is tirelessly repeated as justification for Israel’s transgressions against the Arabs.
The origin of the phrase is not Arab, but Jewish. It comes from a 1961 speech to the Knesset by Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion who was attempting to create a situation where Israel’s security would be used as an excuse to push the Arabs out of Palestine and establish a pure Jewish state. Since then, the phrase has become a standard part of any dialogue about Israel/Palestine and is taken as a factual basis for Arab intent of Israel’s destruction.
Another popular myth in the Zionist lexicon is as Jerry faithfully expressed; “The Jews who were in the Israeli half told the Muslim Arabs that lived there that they were welcome to stay. However, their Arab brethren, in the dozens of countries surrounding Israel, suggested that they leave. “We will have a war, and drive the Jews into the sea.” “Then we will have both countries to ourselves.” has been shown by overwhelming historical research to be false.
During the years after Israel’s creation, the Israelis kept meticulous records. In the early 1980′s the opening of many historical and military documents archived by the Israeli and British governments have provided a new perspective that voids the official Israeli history.
One document titled “The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 ¬ 1/6/1948″ was produced by the Israeli Defense Forces Intelligence Service and outlines what the IDF Intelligence Service regarded as the main factors in the exodus of the Arabs, including these top five:
a. Direct hostile Jewish [Haganah/IDF] operations against Arab settlements.
b. The effect of our hostile operations on nearby Arab settlements.
c. Operations of the Jewish dissidents [Menachem Begin's Irgun and Yitzhak Shamir's Stern Gang, also known as the Irgun Tzvai Leumi and the Lehi, resp.].
d. Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare] aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
e. Ultimate expulsion orders [by Haganah/IDF].
The Intelligence Service report stated that “without doubt, hostile [Haganah/IDF] operations were the main cause of the movement of the population” and that the wave of emigration in each district, “followed hard upon the increase and expansion of our [Haganah/IDF] operations in that district.” The report cites “surprise, protracted mortar barrages, and the use of loudspeakers broadcasting threatening messages, factors which had a strong influence in precipitation flight” and noted that “an attack on one village or town often affected its neighbors. The evacuation of a certain village because of an attack by us prompted in its wake many neighboring villages to flee.” The report concludes that “It is possible to say that at least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our Haganah/IDF operations and by their influence. The effects of the operations of the dissidents Jewish organizations [the Irgun and the Stern Gang] directly caused some 15% of the emigration.”
The Deir Yassin massacre, which occurred on April 9 1948, claimed the lives of about 240 men women and children of this peaceful village and included rapes and mutilations. There were other massacres, but the one at Deir Yassin was widely publicized and became the signature of the Irgun and the Stern Gang.
Rather than instructing the Palestinians to flee their homes and villages, the report states “the Arab institutions attempted to struggle against the phenomenon of flight and evacuation, and to curb the waves of emigration”. The Arab Higher Committee imposed restrictions, and issued threats, punishments, and propaganda in the radio and press to curb the emigration, and also tried to mobilize the governments in the neighboring Arab states to assist in this effort, as both shared the same interest.
Anyone who needs more proof that the Israeli’s intentions all along have been to expel the Arabs from Palestine, need only look at the statements of various Zionist and Israeli leaders. Theodor Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, said in 1892:
“[We shall] spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”
Statements by Ben Gurion include; “We must expel the Arabs and take their places and if we have to use force, to guarantee our own right to settle in those places, then we have force at our disposal.” “During the assault we must be ready to strike the decisive blow; that is, either to destroy the towns or expel its inhabitants so our people can replace them.” “The war will give us land. The concept of ‘ours’ and ‘not ours’ are peace concepts, only, in war they lose their whole meaning.”
Ariel Sharon, the architect of the ethnic cleansing operations in the West Bank stated in 1973 as a response to the Palestinian question; “We’ll make a pastrami sandwich of them. We’ll insert a strip of Jewish settlement in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlement, right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years time, neither the United Nations, nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart.” And more recently, in 1998; “Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can. Everything we take now will be ours. Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
One only has to look at a map of the West Bank today; here;
http://www.ccmep.org/delegations/maps/landmap1.jpg and here;
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621,dwp_uuid=fc3334c0-2f7a-11da-8b51-00000e2511c8.html
to see the effectiveness of this plan.
Most Palestinians make their living from farming, yet they have been portrayed as lazy useless bums who wasted the land. Generations of farmers that produced vast amounts of fruit, vegetables, and olives have now lost their land to the Israeli settlements, which appear as fortresses on the hilltops, heavily guarded, surrounded by walls, barbed wire and accessible by Jewish only roads which split the Palestinian people from their land, towns, jobs, schools, family and hospitals. Sharon’s vision of a Jewish pastrami sandwich dividing the West Bank has come true.
Speaking of Sharon, Jerry cites the “return of Gaza” as an example of the beneficence of Israel. It’s true that after destroying every Jewish home, crop, greenhouse and irrigation system, the Jewish settlers were forced to leave. This cleared the way for increased military operations against the Arabs in Gaza which has now been under siege and completely closed off by Israel for over a year and a half. The denial of food, water, medication, and other life supporting commodities has resulted in a humanitarian crisis that Human Rights Watch calls extremely dire. Sharon never intended for Gaza to remain in the hands of the Arabs, but he fell ill before he could carry out the full plan. Still, the IDF has carried on his Zionist agenda. Israeli civilians may be temporarily gone from Gaza, but once the area has been cleansed of its Arab population through starvation, disease and deadly force, the Jewish settlers will be allowed to return in greater numbers than before.
When the myths are stripped away and the true history of Israel/Palestine is laid bare by indisputable facts, the agenda of Israel becomes perfectly clear; to take all of Palestine for themselves and never allow a Palestinian state to be created. Unfortunately for the Palestinian people and for those like me trying to get the truth out, those myths remain stubbornly entrenched in the American, especially Jewish American, psyche. This is no accident. The Zionists fear that if American taxpayers knew what was being done with their money they would cease to support this plan, which has prompted them to launch an aggressive propaganda campaign. Portraying the Arabs as “radical Muslims [that] are products of failed societies with corrupt leaders…[that] continue to waste time and energy trying to blow up their children and think of ways to push the Jews into the Sea,” ensures that Americans will remain duped into believing that Israel is simply fighting terrorism. And labeling anyone who disputes the myths hateful and anti-Semitic, silences many of those who truly desire to bring greater understanding and compassion in an effort to “create a better place for everyone.”
There is enough room in the Holy Land for two Monster Homes side by side, and an opportunity for peace between neighbors. But if Israel insists on occupying the Palestinian’s home, and driving the rightful owner’s from the land at the point of a gun, there will never be peace.
It’s a shame that the initial “monster home” thrust of my blog has evolved into a discussion of the Middle East. Monster Homes were so much more fun!
Reckless G cites an interesting list of facts to support her hypothesis, but in many ways, she is missing the forest from the trees.
The simple truth is that whenever the Israelis have had an actual person or reliable State to negotiate with, they have made peace. They established treaties with Jordan and Egypt that are sustainable, to the benefit of all three countries.
I wonder who Reckless G would suggest the Israelis negotiate with in “Palestine?’ Their last leader, Yassir Arafat, ended up with 300 million dollars in a Swiss Bank account. . I remain confident that he didn’t acquire his wealth building homes in Starwood. I am always amazed when well-meaning people like Reckless G lament the poor economic state of the regurgees, but blame it on the Israelis instead of their own poorly-chosen and corrupt leadership.
Would Reckless G suggest that the Israelis negotiate with Hamas? They are an avowed terrorist organization that doesn’t even recognize Israel’s right to exist. What good would it be for Israel to sign a treaty giving away the lands in question, if it only brought the terrorists a step closer to Jewish school buses?
I can see the negotiations with Hamas clearly. Just let me move my lot line over a few feet on Red Mountain, and then I will be in a better position to blow up your monster home. In fact, how many of AspenPost ‘s readers would ask a surveyor to come over and re-mark their property lines to the benefit of a neighbor , who wanted the extra land for his dog to poop on their property?
In a negotiation, everyone should be in a position to get something. The Israelis, more than once, have offered to give up “land for peace,” as long as it’s a sustainable peace. Please explain to me again what Hamas is offering the Israelis? Don’t you think they could start by recognizing their right to exist.?
Although the Israelis have never said so in public, military experts generally acknowledge that they have nuclear weapons. They aren’t going to just roll over and play dead for the terrorists. With this reality in mind, the plight of the “Palestinians” would be vastly advanced if they would elect a leadership interested in negotiating a real peace. Until the, Reckless G will have plenty to write about, but all of her pleading isn’t going to solve the problem. Only a motivated Palestinian populace, who value their lives and their children’s lives and who want a brighter future for everyone in the region, can change the current stalemate.
Having met many well educated and employed Palestinians in Syria and Jordan, they all had the same account of events. Their parents were told by British soldiers in 1948 to leave their homes in the area now called Israel for a short time and then they could return. They have never been allowed to return as required by UN Resolution 242 and subsequent resolutions. The right of return of the Palestinian refugees is an issue that remains unaddressed as they would out number the Jews in Israel if they returned. Mr. Bovino’s account of events in 1948 are not true.
Cathleen, thank you for your contribution. Your extensive knowledge of the subject and on the ground experience are greatly appreciated.
Jerry, looks like you have finally discovered my true identity. This no doubt negatively colors your perception of this discussion, but I will continue on anyway for the benefit of those interested in learning the truth.
As for the original premise of this post devolving into a debate over Israel/Palestine, I can only say that; you started it with your remark about the use of the word Palestinian. And note that I was not the first person to comment on the racist undertones of that remark.
Once again you trot out the standard myths to defend Israel’s atrocious occupation of Palestinian land. Time for more debunking…
The myth:
“The simple truth is that whenever the Israelis have had an actual person or reliable State to negotiate with, they have made peace.”
Translation: Israel has no one to negotiate with, has tried negotiating but been rejected by the Palestinian leadership, is willing to trade land to the Palestinians for peace.
The truth:
Israel has rejected again and again Palestinian’s overtures for peace, the Roadmap for Peace was accepted in its entirety by the Palestinian Authority. It was rejected by Israel because of the requirement to give land back to the Palestinians and stop the building of Jewish settlements in the West Bank. Israel’s leaders publicly pretend to accept the land for peace deal but privately vow never to give up land to the Palestinians.
The myth:
“I am always amazed when well-meaning people like Reckless G lament the poor economic state of the regurgees, but blame it on the Israelis instead of their own poorly-chosen and corrupt leadership.”
Translation: Corrupt Palestinian leadership is responsible for Palestine’s economic failure.
The truth:
The World Bank has declared that the lack of accessibility to farms and jobs caused by the Israeli settlements, roads, walls, and closures is solely responsible for Palestine’s economic decline. In Gaza, Israel’s blockade of food, medicine and fuel is crushing the Palestinian economy.
The myth:
“The Israelis, more than once, have offered to give up “land for peace,” as long as it’s a sustainable peace. Please explain to me again what Hamas is offering the Israelis? Don’t you think they could start by recognizing their right to exist.?”
Translation: Palestinians don’t recognize Israel’s right to exist. As soon as they do, Israel will give them their land back and make peace.
The truth:
Yassar Arafat and the Hamas leadership both agreed to officially recognize Israel’s right to exist as soon as Israel declares where its borders are and accepts the creation of a Palestinian state. Kind of hard to recognize a state when that state doesn’t even acknowledge the extent of its own territory. If Palestinians agree to recognize Israel, will Israel then declare that its borders include the West Bank and Gaza? Would this then negate Palestine’s existence altogether? Yes, according to the UN charter. If Palestine recognizes Israel, Palestine ceases to exist. This would play perfectly into Israel’s plan. That’s why they insist on it as a requirement for peace.
The myth:
“I can see the negotiations with Hamas clearly. Just let me move my lot line over a few feet on Red Mountain, and then I will be in a better position to blow up your monster home. In fact, how many of AspenPost ‘s readers would ask a surveyor to come over and re-mark their property lines to the benefit of a neighbor , who wanted the extra land for his dog to poop on their property?”
Translation: Israel’s security is at stake. Israel can’t give the land back to Palestinians because Palestinians will use it to attack Israel.
The truth:
It is the Israelis who moved the property line by military force and the illegal construction of settlements, walls, and roads. Look at that map of the West Bank again. Who is on whose property? Why would Israel place 450,000 Jewish civilians inside Palestinian territory if they are concerned about their security? If they want security, they should keep their civilians on Israel’s side of the Green Line. If they want to build the wall on the Green Line, that’s fine. But they’re building the wall deep inside the West Bank, cutting off villages and destroying homes and farms in the process.
So clearly, Israel not only already occupies a good portion of Palestine’s “Monster Home,” but is actively pursuing the acquisition of the rest of the property. All very illegal according to International Law of course.
The myth:
“Although the Israelis have never said so in public, military experts generally acknowledge that they have nuclear weapons. They aren’t going to just roll over and play dead for the terrorists.”
Translation: Israel is simply defending itself from terrorism.
The truth:
Israel is creating the conditions for terrorism in an effort to sustain the impression that Palestinians are terrorists who are only interested in destroying Israel. This is part of the Zionist plan to carry out the ethnic cleansing of Palestine under the guise of “security for Israel.” Once again; look at that map of the West Bank. Does that look like a security operation to you?
While Israel possesses the fourth largest military force in the world and employs deadly force on a daily basis, Palestinians have no formal army, no tanks, no sophisticated weaponry or communications devices. Come on! Do you really expect us to believe that puny weak Palestine is a threat to nuclear armed Israel? As I said before Israel is in no danger of disappearing, but Palestine is. In fact, it may already be too late for the creation of a viable Palestinian state.
The myth:
“Only a motivated Palestinian populace, who value their lives and their children’s lives and who want a brighter future for everyone in the region, can change the current stalemate”.
Translation: Palestinian people don’t want peace, they hate their children and only want to destroy Israel.
The truth:
In recent polls, Palestinian civilians are very interested in living in peace with Israel and hope to establish normal business relations with Israelis once a Palestinian state has been created. Most are even willing to accept a certain loss of their original territory to the Israeli settlements in order to secure the peace. In these same polls however Israeli settlers were found to harbor the attitude that no Palestinian state should ever exist and that all of the Palestinian territory belongs to Israel. They vowed never to give up their illegal settlements even if it meant overthrowing the Israeli government and killing fellow Jews.
The truth is that only the end of Israel’s military occupation of Palestine and the creation of a Palestinian state; a true homeland for the Palestinian people, can change the current stalemate.
The rest of the world recognizes where the real problem lies. Human rights organizations have issued statements against Israel’s violations. Numerous UN resolutions have been rendered against the illegality of the Israeli occupation and the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians. Just read the UN Secretary General’s recent statement;
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2007/sgsm11301.doc.htm
And look at the Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs – Occupied Palestinian Territory website:
http://www.ochaopt.org/
Jerry, I’m sorry but your myths are soon going to die a swift death. With the opportunities for information provided by the Internet and with thousands of grassroots organizations taking on the task of changing public opinion toward Israel/Palestine, you and your kind are losing the battle.
Organizations in America that are fighting the good fight::
http://www.endtheoccupation.org/index.php
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
http://www.supportsanity.org/FriendsandFacts.html
But we are not alone! Organizations in Israel/Palestine:
http://www.zeitouna.org/links.html
The irony is that when Israel loses this public relations war and American opinion is swayed toward ending the occupation, Israeli civilians will ultimately benefit. The Zionist’s plan to eliminate Palestine from the map forever is the main detriment toward security and peace for Israel. Once a Palestinian state is created and conditions for peace are met, the Palestinian economy and political situation will improve. Then Israel will have peace with its neighbor, just as it does with Egypt and Jordan.
Personally, I will not let the issue rest until I see that day…or die trying.
Reckless G,
First, I noticed that you quoted extensively from the newsletter, CounterPunch. Based on the article you quote and others I sampled, this newsletter is not what I would call a credible source.
Arab opposition to Israel stems from Muslim opposition to any sovereign Infidel state within the dar al-Islam—an Islamic term that refers to countries where Muslims can practice Islam freely. This is a pregnant notion that deserves thoughtful consideration, but I digress. Muslim opposition to Israel predates every blip on modern political radar by centuries. Hence, like the idea that David Ben Gurion came up with the “driving the Jews into the Sea” metaphor, most of your revisionism is as silly as WWII holocaust denial.
I haven’t had an opportunity to read all your links, but judging by the domain names, they appear on a par with CounterPunch. Nevertheless, I’ll pay you the courtesy of reading comments, and your links. More later…
[...or die trying...]
Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.
Cheers,
Mitch, all due respect but what does Islam have to do with it? The Islamic extremist movement, though it may be fueled by US and Israeli transgressions against Arabs, should not be held against innocent Palestinian civilians who suffer from the brutalities of occupation. These are two separate issues.
There is no evidence that Palestinians are invoking Allah as their reason for resisting occupation. In fact, most have resigned themselves to the idea that the occupation is to be endured with dignity and patience, as it is Allah’s will. The trivial percentage of Palestinians who resort to violent resistance do so not to avenge Allah, but to avenge their beleaguered countrymen.
Tell me honestly Mitch, if you found yourself in the position of being occupied by a foreign military force, prevented from making a living for your family or even protecting them from harm, would you resist? If so would you resist peacefully, work diplomatically and lawfully as millions of Palestinians are doing? Would you perhaps resort to violent resistance as thousands have? Or would you simply resign yourself that it is God’s will, and move off the land that has been in your family for generations so the occupiers can bulldoze your home and olive trees to make way for another security road?
It is time for understanding and compassion, not fear and prejudice. Invoking the myth of hatred is particularly harmful to the chances for peace between Israel and Palestine. Demonizing Islam and promoting racial stereotypes can only lead to more hatred and violence.
The myth that Muslims hate Jews is the greatest of them all and is simply unfounded, especially as it pertains to Israel/Palestine. Jewish and Muslim peace and human rights activists are working side by side in Israel/Palestine and here in the US. Jews and Muslims have lived peacefully as neighbors since the beginning of Islam. The conflict in Palestine is not a religious one, it is a struggle for power and control of the land and its resources.
You may dispute the relevance of my sources if you wish, but it doesn’t negate the mountain of evidence stacking up against Israel. I have included only a small sampling of the available information. I’m sure if you were so inclined, you could find enough credible evidence to substantiate the fact that Israel is engaged in an ethnic-cleansing campaign, against all decent moral and lawful ideals, for the purpose of moving in to that Monster Home next door to their own.
The fact that you and Jerry are not so inclined to research the facts and find at least a modicum of fault with Israel’s motives and tactics points to a stubborn inclination to stick with the official story, no matter how wrong it may be.
Meanwhile innocent children are starving, suffering and dying under an oppressive regime that you choose to defend.
Tsk, tsk.
[all due respect but what does Islam have to do with it?]
If not everything, far more than enough.
You are mighty about defending the interests of the Palestinians. Frankly, I find this admirable. Like Catherine, you have traveled to the Middle East, embraced the people there, listened to their stories, and held them in support. From your experiences, by the words you’ve heard, and in the hands you’ve held, you have drawn conclusions and thereby leveled the aim of your activism.
Yet, you have not balanced these views by similar travels to and experiences in Israel. In fact, I’d submit you’d regard the very idea of this anathema.
Were this not so, I’d find it a hell of a lot easier to read your painfully wide-spread views on Middle East politics. You write of the pain and suffering of the people of the Middle East as though it were the sole burden of the Palestinians. Sadly, this is not vision. It’s myopia.
Cheers,
[Yet, you have not balanced these views by similar travels to and experiences in Israel. In fact, I'd submit you'd regard the very idea of this anathema.]
Hardly, I would love to visit Israel and hope to do so if not this year, then next.
Mitch, you misunderstand me as do many others. I do not hate Israel or Jews. Because I protest the occupation of Palestine doesn’t mean I don’t care about security and peace for Israel. On the contrary, I care deeply about Israeli civilians who are in much the same position as Americans. Most Israelis would be happy to settle with the Palestinians. They support a Palestinian state and most do not support the occupation or the settlement of Palestinian territories. It is the Zionist extremists in the government, IDF and among the settlers that are creating conditions under which both Palestinian and Israeli civilians suffer, just as the policies of the neocons in our government cause suffering among our population.
[You write of the pain and suffering of the people of the Middle East though it were the sole burden of the Palestinians.]
I concentrate on the occupation and suffering of the Palestinians because I believe there is a direct correlation to terrorism against America. I believe US support of the Israeli occupation is making us vulnerable to terrorist attacks and was a primary cause of 9/11. So when I protest the occupation I am doing so not just for the sake of Palestinians, but for us also.
The reason I point the finger at Israel’s Zionist policies and the brutality of the occupation is because these are not known by the American public. The conflict has been one-sidedly portrayed as Islamic extremist terrorism and Muslim hatred of Jews. I am trying to counter that misinformation campaign by giving people a different view of the situation. Palestinian terrorism is not a result of Muslims hating Jews, it is a reaction to apartheid, oppression, brutality, and theft of property.
Would you expect someone who is trying to call attention to the suffering of an oppressed people, to blame the victim and praise the oppressor? In defending the rights of Native Americans, Jews, or Iraqis, would one defend Custer, Hitler, or Saddam Hussein? So why should I defend Israel? She has millions of defenders already, and in defending Israel, they deny the basic humanity of the indigenous people of Palestine.
My hope is not just for an independent viable Palestinian state, but for a secure peaceful Israeli state also. I believe ending the occupation will benefit Israel and ensure her security and peace. My goal is peace and justice for everyone, not just Palestinians. But the only way to get Americans behind a concerted effort to create a Palestinian state is to put a human face on the situation and to dispel the popular myths that prevent us from seeing the Palestinians as people, who love their children and desire peace and safety.
If the US was sponsoring the ethnic cleansing operations and annexation of land by any other nation than Israel there would be great public outcry. But because it’s Israel, no one bats an eyelash. This is the result of the propaganda campaign that has duped many Americans into believing the myths that Jerry laid out so well in his comments.
You accuse me of being one-sided but you have avoided answering my question about how you would react to foreign occupation. You have produced no evidence that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is due to radical Islamism. And neither you, nor Jerry, nor any other Israel defender has ever acknowledged the suffering of the Palestinians or any culpability by Israel for the humanitarian crisis.
You seem ready and willing to believe Jerry is telling the truth and has factual evidence for his claims. You never question the motives of Israel or its defenders, yet you relentlessly tear into my motives, methods and material.
And in that regard, let me just address this statement of yours; [Hence, like the idea that David Ben Gurion came up with the “driving the Jews into the Sea” metaphor, most of your revisionism is as silly as WWII holocaust denial.] with this;
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign+Relations/Israels+Foreign+Relations+since+1947/1947-1974/13+Statement+to+the+Knesset+by+Prime+Minister+Ben-.htm
I hope that website is legitimate enough for you.
Seriously, Reckless, do you really want to stick to the assertion that David Ben Gurion minted the “drive the Jews into the Sea” metaphor? Perhaps you’ve never read the second book of the Torah, for if you had, surely you’d recognize that this metaphor predates Ben Gurion’s Knesset Address by roughly 3,000 years. Still, if you want to stick to that assertion, by all means feel free.
Cheers,
So…you’re saying the origin of the phrase really is Jewish, not Arab? OK I’ll go with that. Thanks for setting me straight.
Reckless G
Wow…..I have been stuck down here in Florida for the past 2 days and I missed pages and pages of great discussion. Thanks to Cathleen and Mitch for jumping in. We have to keep this blog going so Michael can sell advertising!
Discovering your true identity didn’t negatively color my perception of the discussion at all. It’s clear to me that you are passionate about your position and you are acting out of your heartfelt beliefs. I respect that.
Fortunately, many of the readers of this blog have pretty good common sense, so we can both trust them to form their own judgements and opinions, based not only upon what we write, but on what they can see and hear with their own eyes and ears.
It’s fascinating that both Hamas and Fatah seem to be spending all of their time killing each other right now. I assume that the Jews are somehow behind this too. Sadly, I am afraid that Mitch is correct in his comments. The Islamic factor, especially the radical elements, are indeed part of the problem. A few years ago, I read that there were 33 documented outright wars or “skirmishes” in the world. Of these, 31 involved Muslims. If you take out the Israeli/Palestinian problem, that means there were 30 wars in the world that involved Muslims but not Israelis. Accordingly, the numbers certainly don’t seem to stack up to support your argument.
It just amazes me that you believe so strongly that the 6 million Jews in Israel, with almost nothing in the way of natural resources, are somehow a threat to the Palestinians and the 300 million oil-rich Muslims who surround them.
You might recall, that in Steve Campbell’s video, Judea Declares War on Germany,” the same hypothesis was put forward. Somehow, 6 million Jews in Nazi Germany were a threat to 60 million non-Jews. This is a theme that has followed Jews through their history. In fact, it’s one of the reasons that we have a Jewish State in the first place.
I just wonder, how do these few Jews always seem to “control the entire world?” It’s amazing! My guess is that they don’t control anything at all. They are simply the victim of a 2000 year old rumor, which your “Zionist” verbiage perpetuates.
[you're saying the origin of the phrase really is Jewish, not Arab? OK I'll go with that.]
No doubt you shall.
Cheers,
Jerry, welcome back to the discussion. I’m happy that you are continuing to participate in this dialogue (even though your original premise has been hijacked), if only to give Conniff some promo material.
You seem to have me confused with Steve Campbell. I have never put forth or agreed with the idea that the Jews are in control of the world and are behind all of the evil. That’s just silly. I’ve said time and again that my objections to the Israeli occupation have nothing to do with Jews. I’m sure the Palestinians would agree. If they were being occupied by Hindus, Rastafarians or Druids, the result would be the same; resistance. All occupiers encounter resistance from the occupied people. Just look at Iraq.
Steve Campbell and I use the word Zionism in different ways. Zionism is a self-stated political/ideological movement to recreate eratz Israel. It is not a sinister ploy for world domination. In my view, Zionism is a threat only to the creation of a Palestinian state, not to the world as a whole.
[I read that there were 33 documented outright wars or "skirmishes" in the world. Of these, 31 involved Muslims. If you take out the Israeli/Palestinian problem, that means there were 30 wars in the world that involved Muslims but not Israelis. Accordingly, the numbers certainly don't seem to stack up to support your argument.]
Like I said, Palestine and Islamic Extremism are two separate issues with completely different causes. I didn’t say Islamic extremism is caused by the Israelis. I said the problem with attacks on Israelis by Palestinians is a result of occupation.
This is the trouble with trying to discuss Palestine. People keep lumping these issues together as if they were related. They aren’t. Muslims and Christians and Jews have all lived peacefully together in Palestine for centuries. It wasn’t until the beginning of the 20th century, just before the creation of Israel, that the conflict started. This proves it’s about control of land and not religious ideology. Christians and Muslims are still living together in the West Bank. Many interfaith peace organizations exist in Palestine and Israel. Religion is not the problem. At least not as far as the Muslims are concerned.
If, when Israel was created, the Jews were content to live side by side with the native population, there would be no problem today and probably no need for a two state solution. Because the Zionists wanted a pure Jewish state and began a campaign of ethnic cleansing (which is well documented), a huge refugee situation was created and resentment, anger and resistance was the result. If Israel would withdraw from the occupied territories and allow a Palestinian state to be created, there would be peace between neighbors.
[It just amazes me that you believe so strongly that the 6 million Jews in Israel, with almost nothing in the way of natural resources, are somehow a threat to the Palestinians and the 300 million oil-rich Muslims who surround them.]
I never said that. Your assumptions are muddying the waters. I said Israel is a threat to the existence of a future Palestinian state. Nothing to do with Jews and Muslims. This is a government policy issue, not a religious issue.
The fact that you and Mitch keep confusing Islamic Extremism with the Palestinian resistance to occupation just goes to show how deep the propaganda well goes. By portraying Palestinians as Muslim terrorists, it enables Israel to cry “security!” and use brute force against civilians without impunity. If the Palestinians were mainly Christians (some are, by the way) it would be a whole different story. The US would never support the occupation and oppression of Christians, but because of our racist view of Muslims coupled with our perception of Jews as victims, we give our blessing and our tax money.
Mitch, Jerry, anyone who defends Israel, always avoids talking about the fact that in violation of International Law and the Geneva Convention, Israel is illegally occupying Palestine and preventing the creation of a Palestinian state. I’ve given you a lot of evidence that the Zionist regime in Israel has an agenda to take all of Palestine for themselves. Neither of you have given me any evidence otherwise. You are defending an illegal and immoral occupation. Why?
I am not sure that I buy Reckless G’s premise that the Palestinians have no connection to Islamic extremists and terrorism.
Two things are clear.
1. In a free election, the Palestinians chose Hamas (committed to terror) over more moderate representatives.
2. I recall that post-911 news coverage showed thousands of Palestinians dancing in the streets to celebrate the murder of 3000 Americans by their Islamic brethren. I don’t remember seeing any Israelis celebrating one of the blackest days in American history.
I once read that our political views and religious opinions are so closely held, that it’s frequently useless to try to debate them. Statistics show that people rarely change their minds. I don’t think that Reckless G or I have had a change of heart, but I hope that some of the readers consider both positions and make their own, independent judgements. If our discussion has crystallized some of their thoughts on this important question, all of this internet space was used for a good cause.
[If our discussion has crystallized some of their thoughts on this important question, all of this internet space was used for a good cause.]
This may be the only point we agree on. You and I obviously have very strong beliefs that will never be swayed by each other’s arguments. But some people are understandably ignorant on the topic and are curious enough about it to read this post. Maybe it will help shed some light on this confusing situation or at least spark an interest in finding out more about it.
I always encourage people to do their own research and reach their own conclusions. That’s what I did. Before 9/11 I was completely ignorant. All I knew about Israel was that it was the Biblical land of the Jews. All I knew about Palestinians was that they were terrorists. I think that’s where a lot of Americans are coming from.
On 9/11 I became suspicious of the line that we were attacked because of our freedom. I figured someone would have to be pretty pissed off at America to do something so horrendous. So I started doing research to find out why we were attacked, and it led straight to our policies and actions in the Middle East over the last 100 years, including support of Israel’s occupation. That’s what the 9/11 commission report found too. And bin Laden recently released a videotape threatening to attack Israel and free Palestine. There is definitely a correlation between Israel’s occupation and terrorism.
When I discovered that our policies in the Middle East; not just support of Israel but military troops in Saudi Arabia, overthrowing democratic governments, installing brutal puppet dictators, and supporting Arab leaders who oppress their people, were I decided to start speaking out. I focus on Israel’s occupation because I think it’s crucial to eliminating terrorism against America, and because the situation for the Palestinians is critical. If a Palestinian state is not created soon, the Israeli’s will have stolen so much land that a viable state won’t be possible. The Palestinians will end up just like the Native Americans, living in poverty, isolated into little pockets of land with no means to support themselves, their rich heritage and culture disrupted and destroyed forever.
Jerry, regarding your two tests for whether Palestinians are Jihadists;
1. The Palestinians chose Hamas because they saw Fatah as being corrupt and ineffectual in fighting the occupation. Hamas may be a terrorist organization in your eyes but to the Palestinians it has been a humanitarian relief organization that is serious about resisting occupation by any means. If we formed an organization in America to fight a foreign occupation, we would call them freedom fighters or a resistance army.
2. When we were attacked on 9/11, the attackers were seen by Palestinians to be avenging the suffering caused to their Muslim brothers and sisters by our support of Israel. That’s why the Palestinians celebrated. They saw it as payback for the thousands of weapons and billions of tax dollars we provide to Israel that are used to steal their land and kill their children.
But lumping Palestinians in with Islamic Jihadists is a mistake. In the case of the Palestinians, terrorism is a tool used by desperate disenfranchised powerless people against a brutal regime that is oppressing their people. The Palestinians are not just fighting an ideological war against Israel, they are fighting for their very survival. They have no access to expensive weapons, tanks, and aircraft. They have only homemade bombs and a few second rate missiles. One thing is for sure, they are no match for Israel, and never will be.
All Israel has to do is keep provoking Hamas into attacking, meanwhile building settlements and the apartheid wall, annexing more and more land in the West Bank, displacing 12,0000 Palestinians per year until they’ve reached their goal of possessing all of Judea and Samaria. And convincing the world they’re doing it all for security of course. In this regard the Palestinians are cooperating in their own demise. The more they attack, the better for Israel.
Jerry, it looks like you are never going to answer my questions or explain why you support the occupation and the denial of a Palestinian state. I guess “because they’re terrorists” is reason enough for you.
I hope others reading this post will take the initiative to learn about the people of Palestine. Some books I’d recommend are; Jimmy Carter’s “Palestine; peace, not apartheid” and Ilan Pappe’s “The ethnic cleansing of Palestine.” There are also many good videos. Search Palestine on youtube and you’ll get a ton of videos as well as some lively pro and con comments. An excellent video called “The Iron Wall” is also available to view on-line. It’s long, but well worth it.
The main thing I would ask of those who wish to understand the situation better is to put yourself in the Palestinians’ place. What would you do if you were living under occupation, without a country or citizenship rights, displaced by settlement expansion and restricted from travel, jobs, schools, hospitals and family? If you had no legal recourse against a powerful oppressor whose billion dollar army is crushing your chances for survival and all you have are some rocks, what would you do? How would you feel about that occupying regime? Would you consider resistance justified? What would resistance to occupation look like? What would happen to your family, neighbors, friends, to your chances for freedom and a country of your own if you did not resist?
It’s time to quit seeing Israel as the victim and look at who the real victims are in this situation. I’m sure anyone who puts aside their prejudices and really looks at the evidence will come to the conclusion that it’s time to end the occupation of Palestine.
Reckless G.
I have enjoyed the discussion. At this point, I feel like we have stated our positions clearly. Accordingly, I am going to be the gentleman, digest your most recent missive, and allow our previous comments to tell the story we believe is the correct one. Therefore, you have the last word.
Jerry, thanks for your indulgence and participation. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this very important topic, and I hope we get a chance to converse again some time.
Peace.