Sit down and SHOUT!

January 31st, 2008 at 03:28pm reckless G 277

I was recently challenged by your host and the editor of Aspen Post to write a piece critical of Hamas, Hezbollah and the violence against Israeli civilians by Palestinians in general. At first I didn’t see the merit in this idea. That territory seems to have been fully covered by the mainstream media and various pro-Israel organizations. But on second thought, I do believe it would be a positive step in my ongoing campaign to illuminate the Israel/Palestine issue for Americans. So I’m going to give it a try…

As a teen in the 70’s, I was deeply affected by TV reports of violence in the Middle East and footage of bombed out buildings or buses, the dead and wounded bodies and crying bystanders. The perpetrators were Palestinian terrorists, the victims were Israeli civilians.

Everything I knew about Israel came from the Bible. They were the people of Moses and Jesus’ people. They were undoubtedly good people, who had already suffered great injustices. As a result of these horrific events, I formed an immediate prejudice against Arabs.

I believe this is America’s collective experience; a visceral revulsion for anyone who would kill innocent civilians, especially if we believe it is for no other reason than ethnic hatred. Because of the strong association between those early TV images and the more recent violence by Hamas and Hezbollah (H&H), Americans generally express utter contempt for the Palestinian population as a whole.

This is the great bane of the Palestinian people. It is nearly impossible for ordinary Palestinians, who wish to confront the injustice of Israeli occupation by non-violent means, to gain any sympathy from the American people. Because of the actions of H&H, the entire resistance movement has been branded as “radical Islamic terrorists trying to destroy Israel.” That is the soundbite that has been drummed into our heads from an early age.

If the American people knew what suffering and injustice the Palestinians were enduring under occupation, if they had any idea of the extent of illegal and immoral actions being taken to obtain a racially pure “greater” Israel, they certainly would not condone the continuing spread of Israeli settlements into the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) of the West Bank.

But Americans don’t know. And they don’t care to investigate these claims made by human rights organizations. Because every time we hear another news report of a suicide bombing or missile attack by Palestinians, it reinforces our belief that they hate Jews and want to destroy Israel. We have all of the information we need to pass judgment on the Palestinian people. Case closed.

For this reason, aside from the obvious immorality of killing innocent people, violence is not the way to obtain justice. It only hardens people’s hearts against the perpetrators and anyone who condones or defends them. It gives Israel a reason to crack down hard on the Palestinian civilian population, creating more violence and hatred, and furthering the humanitarian crisis. Violence can never solve a conflict, it can only create more.

So I hereby condemn the violence by the Palestinian resistance movement as utterly vile, immoral and without merit. If I had the power, I would order it stopped immediately.

And here is my fantasy solution to the Middle East conflict;

The resistance movement holds a Sit-in. Every Palestinian inside of Israel proper and in the Occupied Territories, as well as the refugees in neighboring countries, sits down in the streets for a week or more. They do NOT shout; “Death to Israel,” they shout “Free Palestine!” They do not resist arrest, injury or death at the hands of the IDF. Because the media cannot ignore such a momentous event; the Palestinians show the world that they are victims of injustice and inhumanity.

Because of international pressure, especially from the United States, whose citizens are outraged because we put great value on freedom and justice, Israel agrees to withdraw from the OPT and recognize Palestine as a sovereign state. Hamas, Hezbollah and Fatah all agree to recognize Israel and renounce violence. A peace agreement is reached.

Why not? It worked for Gandhi.

Entry Filed under: Religion, Carbondale, Garfield County, Colorado, Foreign Policy, Con Games, United Post

56 Comments Add your own

1. Michael Conniff | January 31st, 2008 at 6:19 pm

Well-done, Sue! You took the challenge.

Best, Michael!
2. Mitch.Mulhall | January 31st, 2008 at 10:08 pm

No. Sue took a challenge. It's far from over.

Cheers,
3. Mitch.Mulhall | January 31st, 2008 at 10:25 pm

There must be some way out of here...
4. reckless G | February 1st, 2008 at 7:46 am

It ain’t over until the corpulent woman displays her vocal ability.

Meanwhile…

Excuse me while I kiss the sky
5. reckless G | February 1st, 2008 at 10:28 am

Lest you think that nonviolent resistance to occupation is not within the realm of possibility for Palestinians, here are excerpts from an article by Mazin Qumsiyeh, who was born to a Palestinian Christian family and splits his time between the USA and Palestine. He served on the faculty of both Duke and Yale Universities. He served on the Steering/Executive Committees of a number of groups including Peace Action, the US Campaign to End the Occupation, and the Palestinian American Congress. He is a member of a number of human rights groups (Amnesty, Peace action, Human Rights Watch, ACLU etc.). His third and latest book is titled "Sharing the Land of Canaan: human rights and the Israeli/Palestinian Struggle."

The full article can be seen here:

http://qumsiyeh.org/palestiniannonviolentresistance/

WARNING: some material in the full article may be disturbing to some individuals. In the spirit of this post, the excerpts below have been selected for viewing by all audiences.

“The point of nonviolent resistance, to allow your oppressors (those who consider themselves your enemy) to abandon their oppression and join in recognizing common humanity.”

"The New York Times and the US media more generally almost never report on what 99.5% of Palestinians have done every day of their lives for the last 38 years, nonviolently resist Israeli occupation. Over the last three years the New York Times has published only three feature articles on Palestinian nonviolent resistance. This despite the fact that Palestinians have conducted hundreds of nonviolent protests over the last three years throughout the West Bank against Israel's construction of the Wall on Palestinian land.”

"Nonviolent resistance demands strong leaders. In the first days of the occupation in 1967, the Palestinian nonviolence movement had a surplus. A dynamic voluntary work movement sprang up under the guidance of democratically elected municipal councils. This movement created jobs, built schools, established youth clubs, and created public libraries. Seven years later, in 1973, the establishment of the Palestinian national Front provided much needed central leadership with representation from all the occupied territories. Its goal was to collectively confront the Israeli occupation by nonviolent means (Abdul Jawad Saleh, "Live from Palestine: International and Palestinian Direct Action Against the Israeli Occupation").”

“In the early 1970s demonstrations against the occupation were common. The PLO was illegal and so was flying any Palestinian flags. Yet, nationalist feelings were very strong.”

“In the 1980s, the Palestinian tradition and practice of nonviolence grew dramatically. Among the first methods employed in the effort to effect change, and still in use today, were boycotts of Israeli products and services, refusal to obey military orders, burning Israeli ssued ID cards, refusal to vacate confiscated properties, and self-reliance. During the Palestinian uprising that started in 1987 these tactics were put into widespread use. Gardening in backyards, educating children in clandestine classrooms when schools were closed by the military, and countless other methods were developed and expanded.”

“These tactics spread over time and more importantly adapted to changing circumstances on the ground. My own hometown of Beit Sahour engaged in a tax revolt which became a poster case for nonviolent resistance to Israeli occupation. All town residents refused to pay taxes to an occupation army that was using our taxes not to build us schools and clinics but to fund its occupation army and to build Jewish-only settlements and roads on our lands.”

“The commitment to nonviolence gained momentum in the past seven years with the onset of the latest Palestinian uprising (intifada) in 2000. Here are just a few of the examples of these efforts:

- The Palestinian Initiated International Solidarity Movement is launched and expands activities to bring International to witness and work for peace in Palestine. http://www.palsolidarity.org/
- The Open Bethlehem initiative works through media and politicians to effect a lifting of the siege on Bethlehem area residents (see http://www.openbethlehem.org
- Palestinians initiated an expanded oral history project http://www.PalestineRemembered.com/OralHistory
- Birzeit University and others launch Right To Education Campaign (http://right2edu.birzeit.edu)
- Palestinian Film Makers make an impact nationally and internationally with films like Paradise Now and Jenin, Jenin
- The Palestinian Grassroot anti-apartheid wall campaign was initiated with direct actions ranging from demonstrations to media work to soliciting international support
- Palestinian Theater Groups tour in Europe and North America humanizing Palestinians and bringing stories of life under occupation. This includes Alrowwad Chjhildren Theater (Dheiwheh Refugee Camp http://alrowwad.blogspot.com/
- Palestinians launch Right to Enter Campaign http://www.righttoenter.ps

“Activists on the ground derive strength from support by thousands of individuals all over the world. Those who could not go and join them are working hard in their respective countries to educate people about the violence of the occupation, an occupation that is fast becoming the longest military occupation still standing. Demonstrations continue to be frequent in hundreds of cities around the world. International networks like the International Solidarity Movement are expanding in every city, state and country.”

FREE PALESTINE!
6. Hugh520 | February 1st, 2008 at 6:25 pm

I'm sorry but I don't but it G.

Who are you to renounce violence on behalf of a people who's oppression now dates over a century -- whose sons and daughters have been slaughtered by the tens of thousands.

Who for that matter was Lord Balfour to set the occupation in motion.

If I lost a son or daughter to Israeli tanks or gunfire or rockets, I dare say there wouldn't be much to keep me from seeking to force my suffering on those who deprived me of my beloved child.

[ If the American people knew what suffering and injustice the Palestinians were enduring under occupation... ]

What would we do, If we really knew? The land of the free, who threw off the yoke of oppression by force of arms. what would we do?
7. reckless G | February 1st, 2008 at 9:42 pm

The Israeli parent suffers no less when their child is taken from them by a suicide bomber. How many children have to die before it’s enough?

As a peace advocate I can’t very well condone an eye for an eye. Besides as I said, violent resistance only gives Israel an alibi for their “war on terror.” Every act of violence by Palestinians brings the IDF in to bulldoze homes, and Israeli rockets raining in to neighborhoods indiscriminately killing innocents. The current statistic is three Palestinians die for every Israeli killed.

Because this is not a religious or ideological war, but a war over territory, there can only be a political solution. For that, the Palestinians need American support and Congressional action on their behalf. The fates have so far favored Israel because the US unconditionally supports and finances their land takeover, which is sold to fearful Americans as “security measures.”

Americans will never have compassion for people they see as nothing but fanatical religious terrorists. That is why it’s so hard for people like me to get any traction with the public.

One of two things have to happen before America is able to see the Palestinian situation for what it is. Either the Palestinians have to pull a Gandhi maneuver as I described, or Israel has to pull something really horrendous. And I’m afraid they may be getting so overconfident at this point that they could go and do something stupid.

Their recent incursion into Lebanon was a blunder, but still not enough to wake up the public. The Gaza fence busting move allowed us a peak into the strangulation that Israel’s blockade is causing there. But in order to wake up the American public, something truly shocking would have to happen. I don’t even want to think what that would mean in the cost of human lives. So I prefer the non-violent solution.

American security is at stake too. Our tax money and our indifference make us complicit in the Israeli war crimes. We’ve been told by many Islamic extremists that this is a main reason for attacking the US and a major recruiting tool for their organizations.

This is why, since 9/11/01 I have been trying to get people to understand why it’s so important to demand that our government put pressure on Israel to end the occupation and create a Palestinian state.

Unfortunately my efforts have consistently been misunderstood as hatred for Israel, anti-Semitism and sympathy for terrorists. If I were speaking on behalf of people who were resisting occupation in an exclusively non-violent way, my job would be a WHOLE lot easier!
8. alpha6 | February 1st, 2008 at 9:52 pm

You guys make me laugh. You sit around moaning about the poor Palestinians and yet I hear nothing from you about the slaughter in Dufar or the recent killing of almost 1000 in less then a month in Kenya or the more then quarter of a million people forced from their homes there.

Unless it directly effects them, most people don't care. And given the track record of the Palestinians terrorist activities over the last 30 plus years I doubt much will be done. Oh sure, there will be talks, but as long as Hamas is running things, don't expect anyone to take Palestine seriously. What you fail to talk about is that even the Arabs don't want the Palestinians in their areas. Egypt is quickly trying to close up the border wall and pushing them back on their side of the fence. Sure everyone (Arab countries) wants them to take Israel, anywhere, just not in their country.
9. Mitch.Mulhall | February 1st, 2008 at 10:07 pm

G, Alpha, I thought Barry Schochet's analysis of Dr. Ron Paul was spot-on this morning...

Cheers,
10. alpha6 | February 1st, 2008 at 10:20 pm

You mean Ron Paul the wing nut? Yeah, me too.
11. alpha6 | February 1st, 2008 at 10:22 pm

OK Mitch...not sure you planned that, but click on your post and see where it takes you. Pretty wild!!
12. Hugh520 | February 1st, 2008 at 10:25 pm

When I traveled through India in 2000, I was surprised by all the young Indian boys I saw in uniform. Service is compulsory in India the way it is in Israel. Indians from all over the continent get to know their brothers, rich and poor alike. They share the experience of being Indian. It results in lasting friendships that cross social boundaries.

My Israeli friend tells me of the virulent hatred that exists amongst her Israeli brethren for the Palestinians. It broaches no discussion, no compromise. If there are those who would sit down in Israel, let them show themselves, let them rise up against their government and show the way.

When Martin Luther King first met with LBJ, he was asked by the president for more time. He countered that his people had waited long enough, and that he would not stop the protests. The end result was the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and the Voting Rights Act soon followed.

George Bush has squandered American prestige and power as a broker of peace. The settlements continue even in face of ams deals. This last Middle-East trip was the height of folly. No one listens to us anymore -- nor should they after our neo-conservative disaster in Iraq. We have nothing to offer the region but arms. Our President was weighed down with Saudi gifts, but couldn't change the price of oil by one dollar. After 9/11, the price of oil was $28 dollars a barrel and the Saudis soon thereafter pumped enough to lower it to $22. dollars.

This peace movement needs to lodge itself in the hearts of Israelis. They need to be moved to action against their own government. If there is a moral majority in Israel, however silent, then its time for them to act by putting themselves in front of bulldozers and sitting until someone in their government stands up.
13. alpha6 | February 1st, 2008 at 10:45 pm

Yo Hugh, maybe you missed what is on Hamas TV.

Hamas TV continues active promotion of Shahada (martyrdom) directed at children. The new video clip, broadcast Sunday, follows the growth of a young Palestinian boy from a child into a Hamas Shahid – Martyr for Allah. The video shows the young child going to the mosque, praying and reading from the Quran, and then holding an automatic rifle together with the Quran as he envisions future participation in violent acts.

The child then matures into a Hamas fighter, is shown participating in battle against Israel, and eventually dying as a Shahid as the choir sings, “The pure blood will produce honor and glory.”

This video directs Palestinian children to aspire to Shahada, reiterating a recurring music video theme of seven years that Shahada is expected of children. “Honor and glory” and "Shahada is sweet" are some of these messages specifically packaged for children on Hamas TV and Fatah controlled PA TV.

PA schoolbooks likewise promote Shahada death among children. One example:
"O heroes... Do not talk yourselves into flight. Your enemies seek life while you seek death. These drops of blood that gush from your bodies will be transformed tomorrow into blazing red meteors that will fall down upon the heads of your enemies." [Reading and Texts Part II, Grade 8 (2002), p. 16]

Is that great or what?? And thats not the only one. They have all kinds of programs that are similar. As far as I know, there is nothing similar on Israeli TV. So who is preaching hate? I'll let the readers decide.

Here is the link so you can watch the show on youtube. Ain't it great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FvXefcvXCM
14. Mitch.Mulhall | February 1st, 2008 at 10:49 pm

Sit down and shout, indeed...

Cheers,
15. alpha6 | February 1st, 2008 at 10:51 pm

Here is another cute vid of little Palestinians dancing around with their little AK's and swords. I am sure they will grow up to be upstanding citizens seeking peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdIc_vkS2Dc&feature=related
16. reckless G | February 1st, 2008 at 10:59 pm

Alpha you’re not paying attention!

[You sit around moaning about the poor Palestinians and yet I hear nothing from you about the slaughter in Dufar or the recent killing of almost 1000 in less then a month in Kenya or the more then quarter of a million people forced from their homes there.]

Ending the Israeli occupation of Palestine is the American people’s responsibility. Our taxes are paying for it, our government is encouraging it and it is leading to terrorism against us. What is our connection to Darfur or Kenya? Zip. Yeah it’s a humanitarian crisis, but the blood is not on our hands. The US is directly responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

[What you fail to talk about is that even the Arabs don't want the Palestinians in their areas. Egypt is quickly trying to close up the border wall and pushing them back on their side of the fence.]

I see you’ve hopped on the bandwagon of racism with Barry Schochet. Your assumption that as Barry puts it; “no one wants those people” is baseless. Egypt must seal the border because they have a signed agreement with Israel. Their sympathies are with the Palestinians, but their hands are tied because of their deal with Israel.

“Cairo - Egypt respects its border agreement with the Israelis, whose concerns about border breaches with the Gaza Strip will be addressed, an Egyptian foreign ministry official said Wednesday. 'The Rafah border crossing is run in accordance with a clear treaty, which Egypt respects,' Hosam Zaki, the spokesman for the Egyptian foreign ministry, said in an interview with al-Arabya TV.”
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/news/article_1388115.php

And as usual you trot out the most extreme examples you can find to prove your bigoted notion that all Palestinians suck. This is a common tactic of rightwingers like yourself. There are 7 million Palestinians, and only a handful of them ever commit violence. Not every Palestinian belongs to Hamas or even supports Hamas. But I guess that notion never occurs to the closed-minded.

Hugh,

There are many good compassionate Israeli standing up for Palestinian rights. Unfortunately, as with the peace movement in this country, it is ignored by the Israeli government and almost invisible to the average citizen.

http://peace.mennolink.org/articles/israelpeacegroups.html

Violence can never lead to peace. Only when there is justice, can peace flourish.
17. Mitch.Mulhall | February 1st, 2008 at 11:15 pm

Geesh, Alpha, could you post more of a downer? That video twists my stomach. I have two daughters.

Today, al Qaeda blew up two suicide bombers in Afghanistan. Both were down syndrome.

That offends me. That offends me very much.

Cheers,
18. alpha6 | February 1st, 2008 at 11:16 pm

I was in Kuwait when the Palestinians turned against the Kuwaitis and were responsible for many of them getting executed. I was also there when the Kuwaitis, who by the way before that happened were the biggest supporters of the Palestinians kicked them all out of Kuwait and no longer support them.

You are the one living in a dream world. They have no real friends in the Arab world. Sure, Iran will support them, but only because they are willing to sacrifice themselves and Iran gets to reap the success of their blood.

I don't look for the most extreme examples to prove my point, I just provide "normal" ones. In typical left wing fashion, you attack the person and not the issue and you choose to ignore the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization, and currently ruling the Palestinians. Terrorist do not seek peace.

Here is a great vid by your Peaceful Palestinians. I especially like the children will drink your blood part. Great bunch of people you are supporting there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVh-WxTS-H0
19. reckless G | February 1st, 2008 at 11:23 pm

Yeah, well two can play that game. Here you go alpha, something to think about as you lay your sweet little head on your pillow tonight;

Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, September 1999,
Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

And here’s a fine example of the peaceful Israeli children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hefIti-uFUo&feature=related
20. alpha6 | February 1st, 2008 at 11:29 pm

Hmm...didn't see them dancing around with AK's like the little Palestinians. You got to do better then a couple of foul mouthed teenagers. Heck I could film that at a Aspen/Carbondale Basketball game.
21. alpha6 | February 1st, 2008 at 11:36 pm

Also, I like the anti-Zionist publication you chose to quote. Their real agenda is noted on their Ad Campaign where they are blaming the Zionist from getting their pro Palestine agenda from being taken by major publications.

http://www.washington-report.org/adcamp/index.htm
22. reckless G | February 1st, 2008 at 11:52 pm

You call the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs an anti-Zionist publication? That’s a stretch even for you alpha.

So by your rules, violence, hatred and racism don’t count if an AK-47 isn’t involved? Your premise was that Israelis don’t teach their children to hate. I beg to differ.

Here are some more adorable Jewish children practicing peace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxwWt2sSrNI&feature=related

Gee I wonder where they learn to hate Palestinians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6va41PCY_U
23. alpha6 | February 2nd, 2008 at 12:01 am

G, G, G....no, what I said was that the vid you posted didn't amount to anything but a bunch of foul mouthed teens. Don't put words into my mouth. You don't know my rules, but then, I don't play by the rules, so it wouldn't matter anyway. : )

And yes the Washington Report is definitely supportive of your beloved Palestinians. See the link I posted above or to make it easy here is some from that link.

We've put together a series of ads that feature excerpts from United Nations resolutions calling for the Palestinian refugees' right to return and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from the occupied territories—key issues in an eventual solution to the conflict. Other ads point out Israel's destruction of Palestinian homes, and attacks on medical personnel."

"Big corporations and the Zionist lobby want to control the editorial content around which their ads will be placed. " Funny they would use that term and never once refer to any of the terrorist activities of the Palestinians. You do the math.
24. Hugh520 | February 2nd, 2008 at 3:11 pm

I've just watched a few Hebron videos, and what Alpha 6 waves away as some foul mouthed teens, I see as a human catastrophe.

How unspeakably sad to have to hear taunts from your neighbors through your bedroom window at all hours. This is bigotry and hatred buttressed by religion and nationalism .

The Palestinian matriarch forced to live in a mesh cage while the grotesque settler woman calls her a whore.

I don't know what to say. I understand what your saying G. It is our wholesale support for this ugliness that eventually brings about a 9/11. That I've understood since it happened.

It was our support for the shah Pahlavi in Iran that led to the blowback in 1979 and the storming of our embassy -- cause and effect. It never fails.

We need, or rather the Palestinians need a Harriet Beecher Stowe, and we may need an African American president to finally put the issue in all its shameful reality before us.

One thing I've always wondered. Where the hell are the Brits in all this. Why us? Why did we become the ones who've guaranteed this British invention?
25. Hugh520 | February 2nd, 2008 at 5:19 pm

FYI G, TCM is showing Ghandi tonight at 8PM eastern. I never tire Kingley's portrait of The Great Soul.

Cheers, Hugh
26. reckless G | February 2nd, 2008 at 11:46 pm

Hugh,

It’s heartening to know I’m not the lone defender of human rights on Aspen Post.

As for your question; “Why did we become the ones who've guaranteed this British invention?” that could be the subject of a whole other post. Briefly, it’s symbiosis. The US finances Israel’s expansionist aspirations and vetoes all attempts to rein in their human rights abuses, and Israel protects our strategic nuclear arsenal. From there our “Israeli” missiles can reach Russia, China, Iran, and anyone else who threatens our interests. It’s worked well so far, but the blowback potential is huge.

Thanks for the heads up on Gandhi, I enjoyed seeing it again. I can only hope for a modicum of Gandhi’s fortitude in the struggle for human rights.

Alpha,

You are expressing the same intolerance and prejudice that Michael Conniff, Barry Schochet, and Jerry Bovino have on this issue. And just like them, you attribute to me the most repulsive motivations, while displaying shock and outrage at my comparatively mild barbs toward you. I’m just really fed up with the lack of respect for the truth and I refuse to sacrifice my principles on the altar of political correctness. So if you feel I’ve been hard on you, well tough beans.

The bottom line is I see the Palestinians as human beings in an intolerable situation and you (and Barry, Michael, Jerry and maybe Mitch) see them as evil terrorists. You have absolutely no sympathy, while I think if I was in their place I’d be pretty angry and desperate. I know that if my country was occupied by a foreign military power fueled by religious fanatics intent on pushing me and all of my countrymen out of our land so they could establish an ethnically pure state in accordance with the will of their God, I’d feel a lot of resentment. Maybe like the Native Americans felt, or perhaps still feel.

But I can see by these exchanges on Aspen Post that it’s very difficult for some people to relate to the Palestinians as human beings. Even though judging seven million Palestinians by the actions of Hamas is like judging all Americans by the actions of the KKK and white supremacist groups, to people like you they will always be terrorists and nothing more. Nothing human.

I still believe that if I could just get people to see this situation through the Palestinian’s eyes, through the eyes of an occupied people, maybe their empathy or sense of outrage would replace the mindset of fear and bigotry. And if Americans really understood what is at stake, maybe they would make an effort to change the policies of our government toward a more sustainable future.

I’ll continue to stand up to all those who try to knock me down, because I believe we Americans at this time in history, have a choice to make. We either take the high road; compassion, tolerance, justice, and truth, or the low road; bigotry, greed, arrogance, lies and more lies.

It’s a crucial choice; one road leads to peace, the other to destruction.
27. alpha6 | February 4th, 2008 at 7:51 pm

Reckless, I'm not the one training their kids to act, dress, create Kid TV shows and dance in celebration of terrorist acts. (see youtube links at my previous posts)

As I pointed out before, no one likes the Palestinians, Egypt today said they will not allow their borders to be breached again and their guards pelted with rocks. The also are not happy with the two groups of Palestinians they caught carrying explosives headed to some of Egypt's tourist areas. Gee, can't understand that, I am sure they are just trying to build a good relationship with Egypt like they have everyone else by blowing them up.

Just because you are blind to reality doesn't make me a bigot. Your terming as such only leads me to the conclusion that you can't refute the argument so you side step the subject and resort to personal insults.
28. alpha6 | February 4th, 2008 at 9:02 pm

Mon Feb 4, 5:16 PM ET

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (Reuters) - Palestinian gunmen and Egyptian forces exchanged fire at the Gaza-Egypt border on Monday, killing one person and wounding 59 others a day after Cairo closed the breached frontier with the Hamas-run enclave.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080204/ts_nm/palestinians_israel_egypt_dc;_ylt=AlqUpstgxl8_pLpwGn4gIqZg.3QA

Yep, those Palestinians are making friends everywhere!!
29. Mitch Mulhall | February 4th, 2008 at 9:31 pm

[maybe Mitch see[s] [Palestinians] as evil terrorists.]

Not "maybe."

Some are. Others aren't.

Some teach pre-schoolers to wield semi-automatic pistols when those children should be playing with turtles in a terrarium...

When I became a teenager, Hunter's Safety was taught in school, and I got my card in Junior High back in the 70s along with every boy in my class. Based on what I've seen and read, Palestinians prefer Jihad and teach it from the crib.

Frankly, I find no small source of irony in the fact that while I teach my children English and Math, some Palestinians teach their children to dawn the head-scarves of Hamas and wield semi-automatic weapons.

I take solace in the fact that in the end the mind is mightier than the sword. It saddens me to understand that much blood will be shed needlessly until the mind overcomes, and that I may pay with my own life, or worse, my children with their's.

America... It's not much to look at, but it's the best I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot.

Cheers,
30. reckless G | February 4th, 2008 at 10:18 pm

OK I’m calling shenanigans here.

You guys are just trying to yank my chain right? I know you guys, you can’t convince me that you are the goddamned pussies you’re pretending to be. Like if you were in the Palestinians shoes you wouldn’t be planning violent anti-occupation missions against the enemy. I mean come on you guys, you are the kind of Americans I’m counting on to resist an invasion/occupation by a foreign army, possibly, in a Conniffesque scenario; an Islamic Jihadist army. For godsakes you’d better show some freakin’ spine if that happens. You boys are just going to sit back and let a foreign military take over, impose their laws, oppress our people, ruin our lives, and you’re going do nothing, like you’re advocating the Palestinians do. Just do nothing while American freedom and independence disappears under Islamic military occupation and Sharia Law. Well I can tell you, if the men won’t fight, the women will. I’ll strap on a suicide belt before I’m forced to wear a burka and pledge allegiance to Islam.

So you guys are pussies, is that it? You don’t believe in fighting for freedom and justice? You don’t believe in violent resistance to foreign occupation? Great! At least I know who NOT to turn to if America gets invaded.

i wont back down
31. Mitch Mulhall | February 5th, 2008 at 8:46 am

And while we're on the subject of a highly developed sense of humanity, consider this...

Cheers,
32. alpha6 | February 5th, 2008 at 9:26 am

Sue...would we yank your chain??

If I were in the Palestinians shoes I wouldn't have followed the likes of Yasser Arafat who stole hundreds of millions in aid to the Palestinians and stashed it away in French Banks so his wife and family could live a life most Palestinians can't even imagine.

I also wouldn't be turning against my supporters in the Middle East if my real effort was for a free Palestine. However, that is exactly with the terrorist run government of Palestine is doing. So until the "good" people stand up and put in a government that supports something other then suicide kids and terrorism to achieve its goals, don't be thinking the world view of them is rapidly going to change no matter how much you jump up and down.
33. reckless G | February 5th, 2008 at 10:04 am

Yeah, yeah, it’s all the leaders fault, except when it’s the people’s fault. So using your logic, because the American people don’t stand up to our leaders when they carry out policies that create war, death and suffering throughout the world, we are responsible? You’re agreeing with bin Laden and other al Qaeda members when they say the American people are responsible for the policies of our leaders?

When are you going to admit that the government of Israel has some responsibility in all of this? Oh that’s right, they’re completely blameless. They are the only perfectly pure and good government on the planet. And the Israeli parents are so sweet and loving and they teach their children to love everyone while the evil Arabs follow corrupt leaders and teach their children to hate, blah, blah, blah…

I’ve got some videos for you guys now.

Americans would NEVER dress their children up as killers…
http://img.costumecraze.com/images/vendors/rubies/10052-main.jpg

http://www.buycostumes.com/Category/0/Product/10402/ProductDetail.aspx

http://www.buycostumes.com/Category/0/Product/31499/ProductDetail.aspx?REF=SCE-bizrate
34. reckless G | February 5th, 2008 at 10:05 am

Americans would NEVER film their children wielding toy weapons…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FjUghynLAY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3xZoZOxBXE

Israelis would NEVER pose their children with real weapons…

http://ww4report.com/static/gun2.jpg

http://ww4report.com/static/gun1.jpg

…or teach their children to hate…

http://www.radioislam.org/lebanon/jewish-gifs/index.htm

Israeli children would NEVER dream about growing up to kill Arabs…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0glT_eTV9sY

Well, that’s enough to show the utter hypocrisy in alpha and Mitch’s statements. Americans and Israelis DO teach their children hate and violence and bigotry. That is not the exclusive territory of Islamic jihadists.
35. Mitch Mulhall | February 5th, 2008 at 10:39 am

Now you're putting words in my mouth. For the record, I have never claimed Israel is blameless in this conflict.

But let's follow your rationale. Suppose you were able to remove Israelis from the West Bank (presuming Israel has withdrawn from Gaza to your satisfaction), retrace the 1967 borders, and grant sovereignty to the Palestinian peoples.

Do you really think they would then begin teaching their children about turtles?

Cheers,
36. reckless G | February 5th, 2008 at 10:55 am

[Now you're putting words in my mouth. For the record, I have never claimed Israel is blameless in this conflict.]

Oh really? I don’t recall you ever saying that before. Why don’t you take the Michael Conniff challenge and write a blog to that effect?

[Do you really think they would then begin teaching their children about turtles?]

Absolutely!

Can you show me a historical precedence for an occupied people resisting their oppressors AFTER the occupation is over?

Mitch, it sounds to me like you think the Palestinians are inherently evil and that the only reason they commit terror is because they hate Jews and want to destroy Israel. I've given you plenty of proof to contradict that, but you still hold on to those bigoted beliefs. Why?

If what you believe is true, why would Israelis protest the occupation and call for the creation of a Palestinian state. If you're right, wouldn't that be like signing their own death warrant?

If Israelis can put their trust in the Palestinians, why can't you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuSlsiW9hT8&feature=related
37. reckless G | February 5th, 2008 at 11:01 am

http://www.nkusa.org/

Either these people know something, or they are totally insane.
38. alpha6 | February 5th, 2008 at 11:01 am

Whoa Sue...gotta get those emotions in check....

Like Mitch, I have never said that Israel is blameless in its policies nor the US. What I have said is that the Palestinians are not the innocent, helpless victims you want them portrayed as.

And what I have said is that when you allow a recognized terrorist group to be your leaders, then don't expect much in the way of help from your Arab neighbors nor the rest of the world.

I notice you continue to avoid the issue of the Arab nations turning their backs on Palestine and just blame the Israelis ...guess it just muddies the facts on our little Blame Israel and the US for the worlds problems campaign huh?
39. reckless G | February 5th, 2008 at 11:15 am

Now you’re putting words in MY mouth. I’ve never said the Palestinians are innocent helpless victims. They are obviously not helpless, since they are attempting to defend themselves. They are obviously not innocent. Have you forgotten the very premise of this post? But you are blaming 7 million people for the actions of a few. Like I pointed out before, that’s like saying everyone in America is a white supremacist. There are millions of Palestinians who want peace, who don’t condone violence, yet they are suffering just as much as the ones who do. You are saying that innocent people deserve to suffer for the actions and policies of their leaders, You must have been a big fan of the 9/11 attacks then, because that is exactly what happened.

I’ve already addressed the issue of the Arab nations. You claim they don’t support or like or want the Palestinians. That is a false assumption. The Palestinians are waiting for their nation to be created so they can go home. They don’t want to be Lebanese, or Jordanian, or Syrian, or Egyptian citizens. They want to be Palestinians. And the Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians want them to be Palestinians.

Israel wants nothing more than for the Arab nations to take all of the Palestinians and absorb them, so that they will never return to Palestine. Why would the Arab nations cooperate in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine?

I notice you continue to avoid the issue of the Israelis and other Jews who protest the occupation ...guess it just muddies the facts on our little Blame the Muslims for the worlds problems campaign huh?
40. alpha6 | February 5th, 2008 at 11:18 am

Want a little insight? Here is an interesting vid about a Palestinian Women Suicide bomber. Interesting to note she was being treated in Israeli hospitals for an accident and decided to use them as a target. Nice way to say thanks. Anyway, since Sue suggested she would become a suicide bomber if she was forced to convert to Islam I thought this would fit into the insane argument about the tactics for peace being utilized by the Palestinians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okU0ZaSO6L8
41. reckless G | February 5th, 2008 at 11:32 am

Tactics for peace? Is that what you call it? See that's your problem. You think they are trying to get peace by killing people. Yes, that would be insane.

Now listen carefully alpha, the Palestinians are resisting occupation. They are fighting for their freedom. Just as I would if my country was occupied by a foreign army that was trying to exterminate my people and take over our land. And yes, I'd strap on a suicide belt before I put on a burka. I'd kill for my country and my people. I guess I'm not as noble as you.

You would "elect" responsible leaders who would negotiate peace by non-violent means? Is that right? You think that would work? After being occupied for 40 years and losing more and more land each year, you would still be trying to negotiate with your occupiers for your freedom.

Like I said, now I know who NOT to turn to in case we are invaded.
42. Mitch Mulhall | February 5th, 2008 at 11:45 am

[it sounds to me like you think the Palestinians are inherently evil and that the only reason they commit terror is because they hate Jews and want to destroy Israel.]

You need to be more careful about how you characterize my position. Don't make the mistake of thinking that this form of argumentation is as irritating as you'd like it to be. Oh, and nice tight-rope walk around the don't-get-personal-rule:

[I've given you plenty of proof to contradict that, but you still hold on to those bigoted beliefs...]

If what you have offered constituted more than naive thinking and myopic rationalization, I'd find your argument more persuasive.

Cheers,
43. reckless G | February 5th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

[If what you have offered constituted more than naive thinking and myopic rationalization, I'd find your argument more persuasive.]

ditto.

When you start giving some real insight into how you look at this problem, instead of just agreeing with whatever alpha says and offering inflammatory videos and articles as proof that Israel’s occupation is justified, then I’ll stop assuming you are just parroting the Israeli propaganda.

Why don’t you start by explaining what 450,000 Jewish settlers are doing on Palestinian land. Then you can tell me why Israeli and Jewish people are advocating the end of occupation, and finally, please explain how you would resist occupation if the US was invaded by an Islamic army. Are you going to let your daughters be clothed in burkas and pledge allegiance to an Islamic state? Are you going to leave it in the hands of our capable leaders to get our freedom back, as alpha advocates?

See, I give historical facts, documented proof, and soul-baring opinion. And you guys give me…nothing…except that Hamas is a terrorist organization. Is that all you’ve got? Cause it sure ain’t enough to convince anybody that Israel’s occupation is justified and they are only concerned for their security.

In my opinion, when you argue for the oppressors and against freedom and human rights and truth…you automatically lose.

Mitch, but for the grace of God, this could be your son;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtYYnuMZcBA&feature=related
44. alpha6 | February 5th, 2008 at 2:53 pm

":And you guys give me…nothing…except that Hamas is a terrorist organization. Is that all you’ve got? Cause it sure ain’t enough to convince anybody that Israel’s occupation is justified and they are only concerned for their security."

LOL...yeah, I see...they are a GOOD terrorist group. That makes them the oppressed.

"and finally, please explain how you would resist occupation if the US was invaded by an Islamic army." Well, I wouldn't do it by blowing myself up. That won't accomplish anything other then your own death and if you are lucky a few of the enemy or more likely some innocents that happen to get into your demented way.

How did you like my latest vid on the women suicide bomber? Really Sue, I am not trying to change your opinion but rather question your loyalty to people so fanatical that they are willing to kill the very people giving them aid. I mean, no matter how you try and justify their plight, no one would advocate the destruction of a hospital or caregivers, even in time of war. Your arguments to do so reduce your credibility to nothing....pretty much the same as the Palestinians have.
45. reckless G | February 5th, 2008 at 4:10 pm

[I see...they are a GOOD terrorist group. That makes them the oppressed.]

They aren’t oppressed because they are committing acts of terrorism. They are committing terrorism BECAUSE they are oppressed. They are oppressed because their land is being stolen and they are stateless, living under harsh military rule and apartheid conditions.

My argument wasn’t that Hamas is a GOOD terrorist group. My point was that you guys sound like a broken record. Yeah, ok we all agree terrorist tactics are bad. They don’t work. That was the whole thrust of this post. I’ve already denounced the actions of Hamas. But you have yet to acknowledge the suffering of 6.999 million OTHER Palestinians who are not Hamas. Neither you nor Mitch has been able to justify the occupation, the apartheid, the ethnic cleansing, or the immorality of the Israeli government and IDF. You just keep pointing out the obvious.

And nice try, but explaining how you WOULDN’T resist occupation is another attempt to sidestep the real issue. You just can’t bring yourself to admit that you would fight an occupation yourself, given the need. OK so you wouldn’t blow yourself up. And I was exaggerating when I said I would, because like you said, what would be the point? But I do believe you and I would be fighting side by side in whatever capacity we had to resist foreign occupation and rule. You just can’t acknowledge that because then it would look like you were a supporter of terrorist tactics. Right?

That must be why you keep accusing me of ridiculous things like admiring terrorists, or supporting them, or having a loyalty to them. Are you really that dense? How many times have I said that I am not speaking on behalf of Hamas or condoning their methods? I’m talking about the rest of the Palestinian population that includes men, women, and children who have never done anything wrong, never been violent toward the Israelis. They are having their land stolen, their homes bulldozed, their economy ruined, their family members killed.

Really alpha, I don’t understand how you can be so callous. I think you are smart enough to delineate between Hamas and the average Palestinian civilian. So what gives? Why are you pressing so hard to defend a government that has broken numerous international laws and violates human rights on a daily basis? Do you actually think the brutal military occupation is justified by the piddly attempts at resistance that you so gleefully hold up as the standard of Palestinian behavior?

Will SOMEONE please explain why it’s ok for Israel to steal Palestinian land and prevent a Palestinian state from being formed? How in good conscience can anyone champion apartheid and ethnic cleansing?
46. alpha6 | February 5th, 2008 at 5:48 pm

Well, as a case in point, look at the last time the "world" got involved in Apartheid. Before, South Africa was an emerging 1st World Nation, but since their "freedom" they have dropped to one of the worst third world nations in the world leading in such things as murder, assaults and rape. Now that is progress in the world view....yeah right.

Some people were meant to be ruled.
47. Mitch Mulhall | February 5th, 2008 at 10:09 pm

G,

Your tactics cheapen any altruism in your beliefs.

In another thread, you attacked Mr. Barry Schochet, declaring him “racist” on the basis of his beliefs.

You did the same thing to me today, characterizing my views as “those bigoted beliefs.”

You defended yourself against warranted criticism about your attack on Mr. Schochet by saying you didn’t call Barry Schochet himself a racist, but his “beliefs” racist—an argument so specious no grade school student would consider using it. Surely this distinction-with-no-difference represents the kind of tortured logic that has brought you to the platform on which you speak about the Middle East and the plight of the Palestinians.

The definition of bigotry—or what you so cleverly call “bigoted beliefs”—is an intractable sense of being correct. I have never traveled to Palestine, nor declared myself an authority on the Middle East. You have. The fact that I read your words, try to engage you in discussion, and put up with your inevitable petty torments surely demonstrates that of all the labels I do not deserve, “bigot” has to be at or near the top of the list.

It’s clear to me, and it should be clear to everyone who reads your words, that your stance on this subject constitutes a view so discontented that it is hard to look at…

Cheers,
48. reckless G | February 5th, 2008 at 11:46 pm

Alpha,

You just confirmed my suspicion that indeed you are no defender of freedom, and human rights appears to be pretty far down on your list also. At least you are honest and forthright. I appreciate that.

Mitch,

You seem to put more focus on my methods than on the actual content of my argument. As far as I can tell reading back through my comments, my only “tactic” has been to try to challenge people about what they think they know and why they think the way they do. Sometimes people’s prejudices need to be revealed in order to further the understanding of the topic. Especially in this case, as people tend to confuse the Palestinian resistance movement with Islamic radicalism, which evokes a lot of fear and anger in Americans after 9/11.

You label my approach insulting, but it isn’t meant to be. I only mean to challenge people to look deeper into their own beliefs. You may think I’m calling Barry a racist and you a bigot, but there is a distinction between attacking your character for the sake of insult, and characterizing a statement for the sake of examining your beliefs. I don’t know either of you well enough to make a comprehensive judgment on your character. All I have to go on are your statements, so that is where my criticism is directed.

When it comes right down to it, I still don’t know what you believe or why. While I’ve made a point of clarifying my position over and over again, giving data and documentation as well as opinion, you, claiming to “engage in discussion” have not. I can’t even tell if you understand the Israel/Palestine situation at all. You’ve avoided answering most of my questions. You’ve not argued the Israeli’s case or even acknowledged the occupation. You’ve never taken a clear stance on the individual aspects of the conflict. You’re very careful about never revealing your opinions. I only get a vague notion that you’ve categorized the Israel/Palestine issue as a simple case of Islamic jihad and dismissed the Palestinians plight altogether, which is what leads me to believe that there is a prejudiced element to your thinking.

You don’t even seem all that engaged or interested in this issue. It’s as if you’re just going through the motions in order to bait me, so that in the end you can dismiss my argument as “naive thinking and myopic rationalization.” Now what is the difference between my characterizing your thinking as bigoted and you characterizing mine as myopic? You do know they mean the same thing right?

Well, if nothing else, this dialog has helped me hone my argument. At least I know what doesn’t work. It looks as if I am always on the defensive, not just for the Palestinian cause but my own. Maybe that is just the nature of the subject, as I said in my post; defending people that Americans consider terrorists, calls in to question the motives and character of the defender. Learning how to argue this case is half the battle, and apparently I am not even close.

Mitch, perhaps next time we meet for lunch you can give me some ideas on developing more effective tactics.

peace, love, and understanding

Sue
49. alpha6 | February 6th, 2008 at 6:51 am

Sue,

I am a veteran that still carries around pieces of RPG under my skin. I have had my blood spilled on three Continents serving this country as a defender of freedom. How much have you sacrificed?

I think given my history I have a right to my views just as you do and I am willing to defend your right to do so in a way you say you would, but I have actually done.

It is because of people like me that are willing to sacrifice through the ages in this country that you are able to blog here freely. Have fun and enjoy it...its already been paid for by others.
50. reckless G | February 6th, 2008 at 7:46 am

Alpha,

Sorry, but I disagree. Freedom depends on laws, not guns.

American freedom is not derived from military adventures in foreign lands. It’s a result of the laws that protect the people from government intrusion. You have never protected my freedom. The Bill of Rights protects my freedom.

No one has fought for this country’s freedom since the Revolutionary war. Being a soldier in an army that goes around the world paving the way for and protecting corporate interests is not fighting for freedom. As far as I’m concerned, the blowback we experienced on 9/11 was a result of the misuse of our military. Now if America was invaded or threatened in some way and you fought the enemy here on our soil, THAT would be “serving this country as a defender of freedom.”

Until then, defending freedom in America means exercising our civil rights and holding our leaders accountable to the Constitution that they swore to uphold. In that regard I have sacrificed much. So don’t go lecturing me about defending freedom.
51. alpha6 | February 6th, 2008 at 10:07 am

"G" your ignorance on freedom is typical of someone who has lived a sheltered and privileged life unaccustomed to the realities of the world. Freedom comes in many forms, and if an enemy ever does invade the US then your country and government has failed you in preventing such a thing from happening. The US is threatened every day on many fronts from military and terrorist to economic issues that would do much more damage then a bomb going off in Carbondale.

Freedom on books means nothing if you can't enforce them or protect them. You think that standing out in the street yelling at passing cars is defending freedom? What sacrifice have you made other then maybe missing out on a Krispy Kreame snack? And you dare to slight any service person who didn't fight in the Revolutionary war as not serving the interest of this country? Soldiers don't make policy, elected officials do, soldiers merely enforce the will of the nation. You are able to exercise your "civil rights" because someone else was willing to do more then just talk.

I give you quotes from people smarter then I to drive home the point.

"The law will never make men free, it is men that have to make the law free."

Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862) American naturalist, poet and philosopher.

"The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission."

John F. Kennedy (1917-1963) Thirty-fifth President of the USA

"The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as his liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act"

Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) Politician. President of the United States
52. reckless G | February 6th, 2008 at 11:20 am

To quote you; “Whoa (alpha)...gotta get those emotions in check....”

[you dare to slight any service person who didn't fight in the Revolutionary war as not serving the interest of this country?]

First of all, I “dare” because service persons are MY employees. Second, I said they weren’t fighting for my freedom, I didn’t say they weren’t serving the interests of this country. In fact “serving the interests” is exactly what I said they were doing. But last time I checked, corporate financial interests and freedom are completely different things.

[Soldiers don't make policy, elected officials do, soldiers merely enforce the will of the nation.]

I agree. And as a citizen and employer of elected officials, it is my duty to criticize the them when my military is misused. Are our soldiers enforcing the will of the nation? Or are they enforcing the will of the corporations which have the elected officials in their back pocket?

According to a majority of the nation, our soldiers are not enforcing our will in Iraq. They are enabling the military-industrial complex to enrich a few fat cats. And according to all credible sources they are making us less safe by enraging the Middle East population. In no way, shape or form are they defending our freedom. And neither did you.

[You are able to exercise your "civil rights" because someone else was willing to do more then just talk.]

On the contrary, you are able to exercise your rights because someone was willing to do more than shoot foreigners. They were willing to talk, to speak out on behalf of our rights. Women are free in this country because of laws. Blacks are free because of laws. Those laws came about by talking. None of us are free without laws. And when those laws are broken by our elected officials, as they have been by the Bush administration, and our freedom is threatened, it is people like me who speak out and hopefully remedy that situation.

Iraqis weren’t free why? Because they didn’t have freedom of the press, they couldn’t speak out against their government, they couldn’t assemble, they couldn’t petition, they didn’t have Habeus Corpus. That allegedly, was one of the reasons we took out Saddam Hussein.

"The law will never make men free, it is men that have to make the law free."

Exactly. Not guns, men. Men (or in my case; woman) speaking out on behalf of the laws that make us free.
I rest my case.
53. Mitch Mulhall | February 6th, 2008 at 11:35 am

G,

[You seem to put more focus on my methods than on the actual content of my argument.]

The key word in that sentence is “seem.” You can be sure I read and carefully digest what you post here and elsewhere.

I draw attention to your proclivity to employ ad hominem attacks—regardless of your interesting mental gymnastic about how you direct such an attack—because it works against your message. You have sought and achieved public voice. If you develop a reputation for declaring people who test your views racist or bigoted, not only will people avoid engaging you in dialog, they will dismiss your message out of hand. I don’t think you want to foster either of these effects.

[I still don’t know what you believe or why.]

The difference between you and me is this: you profess to have the correct solution to what is arguably the central problem in the Middle East. I don’t. Developing a solution to this problem is way above my pay grade. When your views do not comport with conclusions I have drawn, which they do frequently, I try to respectfully draw you into discussions of these differences. You may call this “baiting” if you like. I prefer “dialog.”

Alpha,

Thank you for your service to this country.

Cheers,
54. reckless G | February 6th, 2008 at 11:54 am

Mitch,

Thanks for the advice and the spirit in which it was given. I’ll take it under consideration.

Respectfully, I wasn’t asking you for a solution, I was asking for an opinion. Dissecting my opinions and methods isn’t dialog. Here’s how dialog works; I give my opinion, then you give yours, you ask questions and I answer them, then I ask questions and you answer them. Voila! Dialog!

You should try it sometime.
55. alpha6 | February 6th, 2008 at 12:20 pm

G writes - "When you start giving some real insight into how you look at this problem, instead of just agreeing with whatever alpha says and offering inflammatory videos and articles as proof that Israel’s occupation is justified, then I’ll stop assuming you are just parroting the Israeli propaganda."

You don't want dialog "G" ....this is becoming obvious to anyone who engages you....

Your discourse here confirms what many suspect in that you are just an angry person who is looking for a fight. And you wonder why you are not taken seriously.

Nice for once again insulting Mitch who is trying to hold a civil dialog with you.

I for one am done with this "blog."

Good luck Mitch....
56. reckless G | February 6th, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Good one alpha; you draw me in to a fight, bash me with insults, then run away when you get hit. Looks like you’re the angry one who doesn’t want dialog.

I wasn’t insulting Mitch, I was trying to get an opinion out of him, which is like trying to hold on to an eel. A civil dialog requires two or more participants. My blogs tend to appear more like monologues, because I’m constantly expressing my opinions, but there’s very little reciprocation. Instead, I get reprimanded for my methods and have my motives called in to question.

I’m still trying to understand how it’s ok for everyone else to accuse, criticize, label, and attack me, but then cry foul when I get even close to doing that. I’m not afraid to take heat for expressing unpopular and misunderstood views, and I can admit when I’m wrong or when someone else makes a good point, but excuse me if I expect the comments from other bloggers to reflect their opinions of the issue, not their opinions of my character.

I wrote this post as an answer to a challenge, and I thought it was a good way to change the framework of the conversation, but now it’s degenerated into another opportunity for people to demean me.

So like you alpha, I’m done with this “blog.”