In the end, let's choose a viable and sustainable planet brought about by our intelligent actions. In this Republic, we have a chance, not by our complaints, but by our actions. Again, when arguing about illegal aliens, that's like arguing which seat you want on the bus as it goes over the cliff. How about your actions to change course. Immigrants are only a symptom of overpopulation? They are refugees from overloaded systems. They grow by 77 million a year. Check out www.numbersusa.com and watch the video from that site "Immigration by the Numbers". Join NumbersUSA.com and become a part of the solution. Yes, terrible leaders manifest all over the planet. Bush is a pathetic figure, but in the end, it's the common citizen that steps up to create change. You may find instances with Susan B. Anthony, Gandhi, Gorbachev, ML King, Eleanor Roosevelt and many others. Thanks for your passions for humanity.

www.frostywooldridge.com

You're probably right. My bad, Frosty.

Still, you can't read Aspen Post with any regularity--certainly as regularly as Frosty posts--and not figure out who Reckless G is...

Cheers,

Frosty can’t be blamed for my choice of an ambiguous moniker. It isn’t the first time I’ve been mistaken for a man, even in person! Must be the short hair.

Frosty,

You characterize my argument as “in favor of illegal aliens.” I neither favor them nor disfavor them. I simply see no threat to my life, lifestyle, or country from illegal immigration. To me, the problem is not with the people, but with our laws.

Now, if overpopulation is the biggest threat you see to America, well bless you! I'll take that problem over a fascist government and corrupt power elite policies that line the pockets of the wealthy while making us more vulnerable to terrorism any day.

Peace,
Sue Gray

Ah, so that's what the "G" in "Reckless G" stands for: "Gentleman."

So much for the rhetorical principle of knowing your audience, say nothing of critical analysis.

I think Cicero would hang his head and rub his temples.

Cheers,

Your arguments, especially the man arguing in favor of illegal aliens is like getting on a bus that's too overloaded while you didn't notice that the man driving the bus has dark glasses and a blindman's walking cane next to his driver's seat. You're riding a bus that will add 138 million people in a short four decades. It matters little whether or not the new passengers are legal or illegal, or whether they benefit this society today. The bottom line remains that the bus is being driven over a cliff by the bus driver and all the while, he kept picking up passengers. It's your job to stop arguing about today and think about what your kids will do when the bus picks up an added 138 million that it cannot handle, cannot water, cannot feed and cannot sustain. Use your critical thinking instead of your emotions. FW www.FrostyWooldridge.com

Thanks for the insight into your thought process. I appreciate the info.

The gist of your argument is that illegal workers are reducing the pay rate. Is that the extent of the damage, in your estimation? If so, you offer a refreshing change from others who blame illegal immigrants for increased crime and disease as well as burdening our schools with non-English speaking students. All a crock in my estimation.

As I see it, the pay rate issue is not the fault of the illegal immigrants, it’s the fault of employers and consumers. Employers can pocket more profits if they can pay people less, consumers can pay less for goods if they are picked or produced by people who are paid less. These issues could be solved if only you could beat the greed out of people.

Blaming illegal immigrants for our social problems is a classic case of scapegoating, and I ain’t buying it for a minute.

On the plus side, Latino immigrants carpool, ride the bus, share resources; bulk food, living space, fuel, and income. To me they represent the model environmentally aware citizens. If we took a page from their book, we’d all be better off. But overcoming the greed, selfishness, and stubborness of the average white American would be a bigger challenge than sending millions of illegals home. So we point at them and say they’re the problem and then we don’t have to make any changes in ourselves. Typical American attitude.

I also believe that as the economy in this country contracts in the coming days it will have the natural effect of sending a number of our illegal Mexican and Central American immigrants home.

As far as "my little town" and its dramatic changes goes, it is a story I have related in the past in reference to the larger issue of Reagan-Bush(I am going to have to start adding the Bush-hyphen to all my Reagan rants from now on after learning what I have in recent days on my question of "where did these Bush's come from anyway" but more on that in my upcoming first post) and their Union busting policies back in the 80's.

I have been recently reading a bio on Catherine Graham, the publisher of the Washington Post, and was somewhat amazed to read she had a past in "my little town" during the WWII years.

In her account she writes of the stench coming from the John Morrell and Company meatpacking plant.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1153/is_n5_v112/ai_7696425
This link gives you an insight into the labor battle going on.

This paragraph is especially interesting.

"Included in the imposed 4-year contract proposal, which had been rejected by more than 99 percent of the employees voting, according to the union, was a $1.75 an hour reduction in the $9.75 base wage rate. Even the $9.75 rate was $2 lower than the rate in 1982, reflecting the intense economic competition in the industry resulting from the growth of nonunion firms, new processes, and shifts in customer preferences".

While this paragraph states numerous reasons for dropping wages, by far the biggest reason was "the growth of nonunion firms".

Also, what it fails to state is that the reason for the $2.00 per hour drop in pay from 1989 to 1982 was because of an earlier strike that had already brought many "replacement employees" into the workforce. A workforce that was now rejecting its latest contract proposal at over 99%. Ironic? You tell me.

So G, while this is just "my little towns" experience, albeit the States largest employer, it is a reflection of the effect of available illegal immigrants on the job market and economies of our nation.

You have to understand that while none of the many line workers at John Morrell and Company during my childhood days made wages that would be called excessive, they did indeed make a livable wage(prior to the first broken strike of the early 80's) with union benefits that allowed them the essence of a middle-class life.

Workers now reduced to working for $8.00 per hour with no benefits as well as working condition and medical
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3D61638F937A25755C0A961948260
benefit reductions.

This scene has been replayed many times, (in many "my little towns") all across this nation, and especially in its breadbasket heartland over these over 30 years now since the amnesty provided in the mid 80's by the Reagen-Bush administration.

I found it myself when moving from wild wonderful Wyoming down to Texas in the winter of "77-78" when our construction jobs were being taken by Mexican immigrants.

It continues today G as I am told by a good friend of mine from Lincoln days that his roofing business in Nebraska is toast because he can't compete with his Mexican immigrant competition.

I can and do feel for you and your brother G as it was only my perhaps excessive impulse for personal freedom that kept me from what could have been his fate.

Remember too G that my solution had two parts.

First was send as many as possible home but...with the hope that once they returned home they would begin to make the changes there that would make it a win-win for all of us.

I just don't see the changes being made there until the proper pressure is applied here.

In this case, I guess I am calling for "tough love"!

Now, what I would give for one more nite in the arms of my sweet Spanish paramour, Cecilia!

It's not your limited and evolving response that aggravates me, so much as other's "solutions." That's why I turn off KNFO on Wednesdays.

I would like to hear your description of how your little town has been changed dramatically by illegal immigrants. And if and why you think those changes are all negative.

I can think of a lot of ways my life has been enhanced by illegal immigrants. But...you first.

However, far from those borders I have seen "my little town" changed dramatically by illegal immigrants.

Therfore my honest quest for "solutions". Sorry my limited and evolving response aggravates you but I am only seeking G. Always looking for better ways.

And somehow, I knew that was going to come up. Touché

There are indeed a lot of problems in America that deserve our attention, but in my opinion immigration, illegal or otherwise is not one of them. In my life I have never been impacted by immigration. I have however, been impacted severely by anti-immigration. Probably one of the main reasons I keep my nose out of these conversations.

My brother married an illegal immigrant and shortly thereafter, they were blessed with a son. Then the INS deported her. She and my nephew returned to her family home in the Philippines. My brother spent five agonizing years trying to get her back into the country legally. Meanwhile their son was growing up without a father. Nice system.

Point is, as I’ve outlined in a previous post, I don’t believe in borders or fences, or keeping people out of “our” country. Imaginary lines and made-up laws cause far more problems than the people who cross them. And don't even get me started on "walls!"

On the topic of immigration, I am aggravated. But my aggravation stems not from the illegal immigrants, but from the proposed "solutions" of my esteemed fellow Americans.