Christopher Hitchens underwent waterboarding last February. He puts a lie to the notion that waterboarding “simulates drowning.” After undergoing this act, he claims waterboarding is no mere simulation. It’s drowning. “It would be bad enough if they did have something—suppose they wanted to know the where a relative of yours was, or a lover, say, ‘well, I’m going to betray them now, because this has to come to an end; I can’t take this anymore.’” Hitchens then goes on to pose the unthinkable: what if they got the wrong guy? Then, he posits, such a person would be in real danger of losing his or her mind.
Yet, even after undergoing waterboarding, Hitchens still has the composure—some might say “audacity”—to write this:
When contrasted to actual torture, waterboarding is more like foreplay. No thumbscrew, no pincers, no electrodes, no rack. Can one say this of those who have been captured by the tormentors and murderers of (say) Daniel Pearl? On this analysis, any call to indict the United States for torture is therefore a lame and diseased attempt to arrive at a moral equivalence between those who defend civilization and those who exploit its freedoms to hollow it out, and ultimately to bring it down. I myself do not trust anybody who does not clearly understand this viewpoint.
~Christopher Hitchens, Vanity Fair, August, 2008
I’ll spare you a beheading video to punctuate Hitchens’ point. They can really ruin your whole day.
Cheers,
Pardon me Mitch, but your obsession with Hitchens is showing…again.
OK so we know what Hitchens thinks. But the eternal question is…what do YOU think?
PS: Missed you at lunch the other day. It was Rat’s fault (I can say that because I know he’s not checking AP enough to contradict me).
G,
My bad on lunch… Unexpected interruption.
Obsessed with Hitchens? I disagree with him vehemently on many issues, which is easily discerned from my posts here. I think you warrant the same status.
No one gives a crap about what I think, and arguably no one should. If I can draw attention to something said by someone I respect, something that resonates with me… that’s a fine use of my pen, I think.
When you can look upon the empirical fact that today two coffins containing Israeli soldiers were exchanged for five live Lebanese soldiers and explain in terms of life the obvious inequity, maybe I’ll lend my ear to the peace you’re peddling. Until that day, it’s just mere background noise.
Cheers,
Mitch,
We’ll plan another lunch soon and hope for no unexpected interruptions.
[No one gives a crap about what I think]
I disagree. First of all I give a crap. Why do you think I’m always pressing you to express your thoughts? Second, the entire concept of blogging is to express what you think, NOT to link to what other people think. You know what I think? I think you’re just too lazy to formulate your thoughts in written form here on AP…OR too scared.
Conversations consist of thoughts. Without thoughts, no conversation. I don’t give a crap what Hitchens thinks. I’d rather have a conversation with you than him any day. Now if you want to use his thoughts as a springboard for a conversation, fine. But you need to begin the conversation with your own thoughts on his experience or position on waterboarding. Any of us can read Hitchens anytime we want with a simple Google search or newslink. But to find out what you think is like pulling teeth.
Now to your comment on the exchange between Israel and Hezbollah. Personally, I think that’s between them and really no concern of mine or anyone else, other than the fact that at least they are negotiating for God’s sake. That’s a start. Obviously Israel believes it is worth the exchange or they wouldn’t be doing it, so what’s your problem?
If the United States were negotiating to exchange live American prisoners of war for enemy bodies, would that also constitute obvious inequity or do you subscribe to the old double standard when it comes to American life?
Astonishing. If you are not the only person who places a premium on my opinion, it’s because the possibility exists there may be others. I just haven’t met them and am pretty sure I won’t.
There is a difference between opinion and factual, or in this case experientially-derived, information. Having never been water boarded, what I think about it is not based in experience and is therefore opinion. Until Hitchens experienced water boarding, his writings on the subject fell into the same category. Such editorializing may persuade, but it usually does little to reveal truth.
In all this hand-wringing over what you perceive as my affront to bloggery, you gloss over the main point of my post. Just as there is a difference between returning two prisoners in coffins and returning five alive, there is a difference between water boarding and getting your head sawed off with a machete. To emphasize the former without acknowledging the latter is a detestable form of moral equivalence. That’s the extent of my point. In my opinion, that’s enough said.
Cheers,
Well, thanks for clearing that up. I have to admit to being somewhat confused as to the point of this post. It’s often hard to tell from your comments just where you stand, which is why I’m always bugging you for your opinion.
I guess the difference between being waterboarded and involuntary decapitation depends on who the victim is. If the person being waterboarded is not the one who weilded the machete, nor was guilty of any other crime, then your moral equivalence goes right out the window.
This illustrates a disturbing trend in what little opinion you’ve offered on Aspen Post. You tend to condemn on principle instead of evidence. I’ve got news for you. Not every Muslim prisoner who is waterboarded deserves to be. Not every Palestinian is a terrorist. Not every American soldier is a hero.
Since you avoided commenting on my hypothetical situation where American lives are exchanged for dead enemy bodies, I can only conclude that indeed there is a double standard dark spot in your otherwise brilliant mind.
[No one gives a crap about what I think]
“E’hem,” Mitch. Shall I quote you from your response to me on April 30th when I questioned why anyone would care about my blogs from the Oregon Coast?
You wrote: [Aren't you setting your expectations, e'hem, lower than you should?]
We, as bloggers, give a crap about what we write ourselves. The least we can do is give a crap about what others are writing when we aren’t. Otherwise, where would AP be?
For Mr. Hitchins to compare his “controlled” experiment with the nightmare that many innocents have gone through in the hands of strangers…Where did Chris receive his fake torture? Did Graydon Carter watch? Was Si Newhouse in attendance. Did Hitch shake the friendly hands that were about to administer the The equivalent of an underwater Tilt-a-Whirl ride at Six Flags — knowing it would end very soon and without the lasting psychological trauma that a secret hostile environment might induce? Was he prepared for another go-round, perhaps innumerable go-rounds? What a piece of journalistic excrement and showmanship. Pick up a weapon Chris and stand a post. We want you on that wall; we need you on that wall.
And about the electrodes Mr. Hitchens alludes to, and the dogs and stress positions he doesn’t? To say at this late date that America hasn’t forfeited it’s right to wag a finger at more barbaric regimes is nonsense. We have planted our boots in the gutter. When several high ranking Bush officials have been warned not to travel outside of US territorial environs… we’ve entered a new era folks.
To those who have died in our custody whether through organ failure or outright pummeling — numbers we will see at some future date — is somehow the more honorable of the two is simply blind patriotic jingoism of the worst sort. Sometimes keeping a man alive is the worst torture one can inflict.
Bravo!
Silly me, I thought this was a post about faux torture.
I’ll chime in though to say that I think M made his point albeit with some opacity, but it’s there.
[ Yet, even after undergoing waterboarding, Hitchens still has the composure, some might say "audacity" -- to write this] [sic]
No he didn’t get all fired up like I did… Young Assistant: “Will you be having the Syrah or the Pinot Noir after your appointment with the torturers Mr. Hitchens?”
…But he did bring this journalistic act of incalculable hubris to our attention with his usual ironic nod and wink there to be found. It’s undeniably a conversation starter, which may be what MM had in mind all along.
I suppose you’re right. I guess I’m just not one for subtlety. Still, I appreciate Mitch’s contributions to Aspen Post, cryptic though they may be.
OK so fine…the topic (as far as I understand it anyway) is waterboarding. I’ve been under the impression that everyone is pretty clear on the fact that waterboarding is torture and that it has been proven ineffective in obtaining valid information and that it is illegal and that as the shining beacon of democracy, justice and the rule of law, the US should not be doing it.
I also believe that though these are all well acknowledged facts, “we” have agreed that in a post-911-world, the U.S. WILL do it, for the simple reason that we can. Since we have the moral authority in all matters, we’ve given ourselves permission to do whatever is necessary to prove to our enemies that we can and will CRUSH THEM! Too bad about those innocent lives lost and destroyed though. Oh well, at least WE are safe (insert ironic nod and wink here).
Ok, Hugh, let me get this straight. Hitchens goes all George Plimpton on the subject of waterboarding and you’re willing to dismiss it out-of-hand because he almost certainly chased the experience with a cut-glass tumbler of Macallan’s served neat? Despite the fact “Chris” likely returned to the comfort of his home and family, he’s still got a broader understanding of why waterboarding constitutes torture than you or me.
G, I find your assertion that I offer no opinion a weak attempt to avoid my point. Your finely-honed sense of what constitutes effective rhetoric notwithstanding, after attending Dr. Hamid’s speech with you and observing you walk away with your unyielding position on the Middle East intact, this surprises me not at all.
I find your (G’s) position anchored in perhaps the most immutable truth I know: a person’s ability to change the world ends with that person’s ability to change him- or herself. I get that. It’s a great place to start. Where you go with it is another question. What I do not get is a blindness to any force that would, in my opinion, forcibly remove such self-determination. The central difference between you and me is that you believe the U.S. is in the business of removing said self-determination. I, on the other hand, do not.
Cheers,
If Hitchens were being honest, he’d tell us that torture yielded many of the false confessions which led us to believe in Saddam’s non-existent weapons, which has in its turn yielded 4100 dead Americans and innumerable Iraqi fatalities — not to mention the 10′s of thousands of wounded on both sides. So in an odd way beheading a supposed enemy combatant is inherently safer.
Thanks Hitch. It’s much clearer now: a dead man tells no lies.
Wait a minute Mitch. I viewed the tape as it were, and Hitch dropped the ( whatever he was holding ) in less time than it takes to exit from the back seat of a Chevy Camaro.
And if you were to ask me if he’s experienced waterboarding, I’d say “No,” he has not. He only thinks he has.
[If Hitchens were being honest, he'd tell us that torture yielded many of the false confessions]
Apparently I read Hitchen’s incorrectly. I thought he admitted this.
[And if you were to ask me if he's experienced waterboarding, I'd say "No," he has not. He only thinks he has.]
Well then. As a sentiment typed from the comfort of your repose, let us all let that be the final say in the matter.
Cheers,
How on earth does Hitch “know” what Daniel Pearl went through?
From the comfort of my repose…
I can tell you that I’ve been through something a lot worse than Hitch’s simulation: waking anesthetic paralysis.
I could not breath; I could not signal that I could not breath. There was a room full of people not more than three feet away from me. I could see them, but could not speak or move a single muscle, save for my eyes which I blinked in panic trying to get someones’ attention.
I was dying and I was alone for what seemed an eternity. When the paralysis lifted 30 to 40+ seconds into the experience, I took my first breath of air into my empty lungs. If I’d had the benefit of one gulp of air before coming to, I would have at least known I had a few minutes, but my lungs were empty the whole time. So maybe I know more than Hitch. Maybe you do to Mitch.
It’s weird that this is coming up again. I have been water boarded. It was not a pleasant experience, and I do not in any way shape or form want to repeat it. I was the gentleman that was interviewed by Mr. Conniff on this subject. The very act that I went through changed my complete outlook on myself and as well as my world view. I was grappled, held and forced (even in a training environment like I went through) to endure that. No air, no vision, time stood still, it starts out slow as the water soaks into the fabric of the towel, then all you can get into your mouth is water and nothing else. That was a profound experience.
Mitch,
Your criticism of my unyielding position is remarkable considering that the reason you remain incredulous that I didn’t take Dr. Hamid at his word, is because his message comports with what you steadfastly believe. Despite my effusive offering of contrary evidence, you appear heavily invested in retaining a blindness to any force that would, in my opinion, forcibly remove such self-determination.
In this case you choose to ignore the fact that Hamid is a professional emissary to American Jewish communities. I found this out AFTER the lecture, by doing some internet research. I became suspicious when Hamid actively refused to acknowledge the correlation between U.S. support of Israel and recruitment of young Muslims to terrorist acts against U.S. targets. If he had given even one ounce of recognition to this well established fact, I would’ve given him more credence, but his message was completely one-sided, asserting that the Muslim religion is exclusively responsible for producing terrorism.
It turns out that while claiming to be a reformer of Islam, Hamid lectures almost exclusively to and for Jewish audiences in America. His appearance in Aspen coincided with a slew of letters to the editor exposing the relationship between Israel and terrorism toward U.S. targets, Hamid was hired by an Aspen Jewish organization to reinforce the notion that U.S. support of Israel has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. There may be a force that can remove my stubborn self-determination, but Hamid is not it. He is a shill, plain and simple. If you choose to remain blind to that fact, so be it.
Now to the subject at hand…
First, as terrifying as the simulated suffocation experienced by Hitchens and Zell was, they both knew deep down that it was temporary and would not result in death. But Hugh has been through the real deal. Now the question for Hugh is; in those moments of psychological terror and physical suffering, would you have lied about knowing something if it meant you would be allowed to breathe again? How about you Zell? Can you imagine yourself in the actual situation, desperate enough to save your life that you would say anything?
Second, to the question of moral equivalence between waterboarding and beheading. Both are designed for the same purpose; to scare the bejeezis out of the enemy. Why do you think they release videotapes of beheadings? They weren’t punishing Daniel Pearl as much as sending a message to the West. The U.S. is not torturing people for information. We’re sending a message to would-be terrorists and inadvertently or otherwise; to the broader Muslim community.
In my opinion, rather than taking the high road and presenting an example of human rights and justice, we have lowered ourselves to the level of terrorists. THAT I believe, is the central difference between you and I Mitch.
Zell,
Not to put words in his mouth, but I’m pretty sure Hugh would contend that you weren’t really waterboarded. You only think you were.
Cheers,
What I went threw was as I admit a training exercise. But to equate that to a hard core situation where it was truly life or death, I was trained that the torture was an end result of a complete chain of events that included various earlier checks of material on my person when I was captured, I would have been probably in this modern age Googled for as much personal information they could use against me, asked questions from anyone that was captured with me about me, and me them etc, during processing I would have been asked simple questions, nothing to do with sensitive material but sideways stuff to get me to slip about my compatriots or myself, (all of this is useful Intel) my boots or even my clothing taken and given something that identifies me as a captive to start my mental breakdown, also my name taken away as well. Things start to happen now to take away my mental edge, sleep depravation (you will be surprised how quickly you can keep a healthy guy in a mental slump), isolation, changing up eating patterns (not starvation in any way), and labor to create exhaustion. During this time the Intel agencies have started a file on you and have moved all info they have to the guys that have you caged. Then the questions start all over again, simple stuff that you wouldn’t think that would be reverent and then slowly the meat of the conversation and if you are able to keep it together then the hard core stuff begins. This is a process they will have a good idea if you are really even giving information or just giving random stuff to end the water boarding. I hate it when everyone thinks that they start on the questioning and the physical torture right off the bat. Remember most of the time you will be dealing with Professionals, but the would is full of amateurs. Beheading is a statement not a way to find out information. It is ment to terrorize the people watching the event unfold on the internet. Those guys had planed to do it from the start. Any information that they might actually get is wasted on those guys.
Mitch,
Thanks to Hugh’s explanation of your blogging methods, I was able to catch the ironic nod and wink in comment #18.
Zell,
I agree that beheading is a statement, not a way to get information. But I still believe the same is true of waterboarding. Your description of the process of getting alleged enemies to spill their guts just reinforces my belief that resorting to waterboarding is unnecessary and unproductive…leaving only one possible purpose for its promotion; deterrence.
Have you ever owned a pet? When it pees on the couch you grab it up and rub its nose into the spot and then send it out side to learn were to actually do it’s business. Well water boarding is kind of like that. It’s a drastic way of showing your discontent in that individuals lack of participation in your planned agenda. Like a severe example of a spanking. During this we were also told to actually tell the truth, mind you a vague or small portion of the truth. Those dudes remove you from life if they feel that you are not taking their effort seriously. It doesn’t do you any good to be killed in that situation; your survival is reliant on your ability to prolong that as much as you can. Your one and only job is to survive and try to escape from there. Dead people can’t do that. Plus you keep them there were they are watching you, guards not on the front fighting etc.
“Leaving only one possible purpose for its promotion; deterrence.”
Deterrence is openly waiving a shotgun at someone you just discovered in your living room that has every intent to harm you. Terrorism is pure propaganda, they only use violence to reap the benefit of the nightly news to get some one, any one to listen to what ever drivel they are currently spouting, hence beheadings. That is why the FBI lists
terrorists and gorillas as two separate entities. Terrorists are defined on that FBI lists as some one willing to use violence against a civilian population with intent to destabilize and or to terrorize a civilian population and gorillas as a group that is only using violence against military targets. Mind you if a gorilla group is nasty enough they will be listed as a terrorist organization say like FARC. Then you have parent groups like Al-Qaeda (meaning the base) who are willing to sponsor, train and equip any poor fool if their ideology is even close to theirs. If you want to deter a Terrorist you take away his access to the propaganda machine and then drop a 2000lb laser guided bomb in his living room. I personally don’t believe and that the government doesn’t believe that one wet towel and a back board is enough to stop them from doing what they want to do.
[ Well then. As a sentiment typed from the comfort of your repose, let us all let that be the final say in the matter.]
Truly the first time I’ve felt condescended to in AP. There’s no crying in baseball Mitch, and there’s no ending a string in AP at your say so.
[ Not to put words in his mouth, but I'm pretty sure Hugh would contend you weren't really waterboarded. ]
The second time I’ve felt condescended to.
OK Mitch, Hitch and Zell have experienced real life waterboarding — in a simulated environment. The gulf between that and the real deal is however quite vast, and the facts re same have been amply covered here.
Real deal waterboarding is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your going to get.
And that ( see F. Gump ) is all I have to say about that.
Hugh,
There’s a fine line between stimulating commentary and pissing people off. My apologies.
I found Hitchens article telling–as if there were a doubt in anyone’s mind that waterboarding is torture, this Trotskyite-turned-neocon-apologist spends the lion’s share of a VF article explaining why this is true.
Your point is not lost on me, either. The chasm between torture administered by people who don’t give a crap whether they kill you in the process and people whose job it is to make sure you don’t die is a dark mental landscape I’ve never visited–and never want to.
Cheers,
Cheers Mate. I think we’re all in essence on the same page.
H
Although we thoroughly put this to bed some months ago, I couldn’t let this exchange just float by unnoticed. In it, you will hear a vapid defense of the idea that torture puts US troops and citizens in greater danger. I’m not much of a Smerconish fan, but he does make a strong point. As is always the case with Matthews, the idea of “more of the guests and less of the moderator” is not embraced.