H

There's a fine line between stimulating commentary and pissing people off. My apologies.

I found Hitchens article telling--as if there were a doubt in anyone's mind that waterboarding is torture, this Trotskyite-turned-neocon-apologist spends the lion's share of a VF article explaining why this is true.

Your point is not lost on me, either. The chasm between torture administered by people who don't give a crap whether they kill you in the process and people whose job it is to make sure you don't die is a dark mental landscape I've never visited--and never want to.

Cheers,

Truly the first time I've felt condescended to in AP. There's no crying in baseball Mitch, and there's no ending a string in AP at your say so.

[ Not to put words in his mouth, but I'm pretty sure Hugh would contend you weren't really waterboarded. ]

The second time I've felt condescended to.

OK Mitch, Hitch and Zell have experienced real life waterboarding -- in a simulated environment. The gulf between that and the real deal is however quite vast, and the facts re same have been amply covered here.

Real deal waterboarding is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your going to get.

And that ( see F. Gump ) is all I have to say about that.

Deterrence is openly waiving a shotgun at someone you just discovered in your living room that has every intent to harm you. Terrorism is pure propaganda, they only use violence to reap the benefit of the nightly news to get some one, any one to listen to what ever drivel they are currently spouting, hence beheadings. That is why the FBI lists
terrorists and gorillas as two separate entities. Terrorists are defined on that FBI lists as some one willing to use violence against a civilian population with intent to destabilize and or to terrorize a civilian population and gorillas as a group that is only using violence against military targets. Mind you if a gorilla group is nasty enough they will be listed as a terrorist organization say like FARC. Then you have parent groups like Al-Qaeda (meaning the base) who are willing to sponsor, train and equip any poor fool if their ideology is even close to theirs. If you want to deter a Terrorist you take away his access to the propaganda machine and then drop a 2000lb laser guided bomb in his living room. I personally don’t believe and that the government doesn’t believe that one wet towel and a back board is enough to stop them from doing what they want to do.

Thanks to Hugh’s explanation of your blogging methods, I was able to catch the ironic nod and wink in comment #18.

Zell,

I agree that beheading is a statement, not a way to get information. But I still believe the same is true of waterboarding. Your description of the process of getting alleged enemies to spill their guts just reinforces my belief that resorting to waterboarding is unnecessary and unproductive…leaving only one possible purpose for its promotion; deterrence.

Not to put words in his mouth, but I'm pretty sure Hugh would contend that you weren't really waterboarded. You only think you were.

Cheers,

Your criticism of my unyielding position is remarkable considering that the reason you remain incredulous that I didn’t take Dr. Hamid at his word, is because his message comports with what you steadfastly believe. Despite my effusive offering of contrary evidence, you appear heavily invested in retaining a blindness to any force that would, in my opinion, forcibly remove such self-determination.

In this case you choose to ignore the fact that Hamid is a professional emissary to American Jewish communities. I found this out AFTER the lecture, by doing some internet research. I became suspicious when Hamid actively refused to acknowledge the correlation between U.S. support of Israel and recruitment of young Muslims to terrorist acts against U.S. targets. If he had given even one ounce of recognition to this well established fact, I would’ve given him more credence, but his message was completely one-sided, asserting that the Muslim religion is exclusively responsible for producing terrorism.

It turns out that while claiming to be a reformer of Islam, Hamid lectures almost exclusively to and for Jewish audiences in America. His appearance in Aspen coincided with a slew of letters to the editor exposing the relationship between Israel and terrorism toward U.S. targets, Hamid was hired by an Aspen Jewish organization to reinforce the notion that U.S. support of Israel has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. There may be a force that can remove my stubborn self-determination, but Hamid is not it. He is a shill, plain and simple. If you choose to remain blind to that fact, so be it.

Now to the subject at hand…

First, as terrifying as the simulated suffocation experienced by Hitchens and Zell was, they both knew deep down that it was temporary and would not result in death. But Hugh has been through the real deal. Now the question for Hugh is; in those moments of psychological terror and physical suffering, would you have lied about knowing something if it meant you would be allowed to breathe again? How about you Zell? Can you imagine yourself in the actual situation, desperate enough to save your life that you would say anything?

Second, to the question of moral equivalence between waterboarding and beheading. Both are designed for the same purpose; to scare the bejeezis out of the enemy. Why do you think they release videotapes of beheadings? They weren’t punishing Daniel Pearl as much as sending a message to the West. The U.S. is not torturing people for information. We’re sending a message to would-be terrorists and inadvertently or otherwise; to the broader Muslim community.

In my opinion, rather than taking the high road and presenting an example of human rights and justice, we have lowered ourselves to the level of terrorists. THAT I believe, is the central difference between you and I Mitch.